CANADA: New home of the free?

[Double D]

Dismayed by U.S. policy, some Americans contemplate a move to Canada
By David Crary AP http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandf...ld/6343068.htm

NEW YORK - For all they share economically and culturally, Canada and the United States are increasingly at odds on basic social policies - to the point that at least a few discontented Americans are planning to move north and try their neighbors' way of life.

A husband and wife in Minnesota, a college student in Georgia, a young executive in New York. Though each has distinct motives for packing up, they agree the United States is growing too conservative and believe Canada offers a more inclusive, less selfish society.

"For me, it's a no-brainer," said Mollie Ingebrand, a puppeteer from Minneapolis who plans to go to Vancouver, B.C., with her lawyer husband and 2-year-old son.

"It's the most amazing opportunity I can imagine. To live in a society where there are different priorities in caring for your fellow citizens."

For decades, even while nurturing close ties with the United States, Canadians often have chosen a different path. Two current Canadian initiatives, to decriminalize marijuana and legalize same-sex marriage, have pleased many liberals in the United States.

New York executive Daniel Hanley, 31, was arranging a move for himself and his partner, Tony, long before the Canadian announcement about same-sex marriage. But the timing delights him; he and Tony now hope to marry in front of their families after they emigrate to British Columbia.

"Canada has an opportunity to define itself as a leader," Hanley said. "In some ways, it's now closer to American ideals than America is."

Hanley's situation is different because Tony - a Southeast Asian - is not a U.S. citizen. The men worried that Tony could be forced to leave the United States after his student visa expires in two years: They were elated when Canada's immigration agency said they could move there as partners.

Hanley, who works for a Fortune 500 company in Manhattan, doesn't know how the move will affect his career.

"It's a challenge, it's scary," he said. "We'll have to drop everything we know here, go up there and figure it out."

Thomas Hodges, a computer systems major at Georgia State University, said his dismay with American politics started him thinking last year about going abroad. He recently wrote an article in a campus journal titled, "Why I Am Moving To Canada."

"I'm thinking about Toronto, though I hear it's cold up there," Hodges, a lifelong Southerner, said in a telephone interview.

Hodges, 21, complained about a "neo-conservative shift" in the United States and praised Canada's approach to health care and education.

"The U.S. educational system is unfair - you have to live in certain areas to go to good schools," he said.

Rene Mercier, spokesman for Canada's immigration department, said any upsurge in U.S.-to-Canada immigration based on current political developments won't be detectable for a few years, because of the time required to process residency applications.

During the Vietnam War, U.S. emigration to Canada surged as thousands of young men, often accompanied by wives or girlfriends, moved to avoid the draft. But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa - the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.

Mollie Ingebrand, 34, said she has felt an affinity for Canada for many years, fueled partly by respect for its health care system. Her doubts about the United States go back even further, to a childhood spent with liberal parents in a relatively conservative part of Ohio.

"In school, I was always told this is the best country on Earth, and everyone else wants to be American, and that never really rang true to me," she said. "As I got older, it occurred to me there were other choices."

Her husband, George, 44, has spent little time in Canada, but said it seems to offer a more relaxed, less competitive way of life. He has no qualms about leaving his law practice and selling the family's upscale home in Minneapolis.

"I don't idealize Canada the way my wife does, but I'm ready for an adventure," he said. "I don't know what I'm going to be facing. That's what I'm reveling in."

The Ingebrands have completed the first batch of paperwork to apply for Canadian residency, hoping their talents and finances compensate for lack of specific job offers. As Minnesotans, they look forward to Vancouver's wet but mild climate: "Green all year, no mosquitos," Mollie said.

At Georgia State, Hodges said some conservative schoolmates have challenged his proposed move to Canada, saying he would be abandoning his homeland.

Conversely, Mollie Ingebrand says some of her friends argue that she should stay at home to battle for changes here.

"I've been there and done that," Molly said. "I don't want to stay and fight anymore. I can have that bittersweet love for my country from somewhere else."
________________________________

I don't imagine that there'll be a mass exodus from the US to Canada, but I do agree that the countries seem to be moving further apart in certain areas of ideology. Any thoughts?

[rockzilla]

I was amazed at the amount of sabre-rattling from the U.S. Government when Canada announced it's plans to decriminalize marijuana. The threat of reduced trade and increased border security, it's all just conservative bullshit.
I would disagree with how great our health care system is though, I actually tried to take a loan out so I could go to the U.S. to get surgery, I would have lost less money paying the loan back than I would have waiting 2 months, unpaid, for 'free' health care.

[tj2001cobra]

The grass is always greener....

Please, feel free to move to Canada. The less people here the better. The traffic in Austin is horrendous.

This is typical whiny liberals who threaten to move every time they dont get their way. What about all of the celebrities who vowed to move if Bush took over the presidency? I haven't heard about any of them leaving yet. Please, hurry up and get out.

This quote sums it up...

But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa - the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.

The U.S. is the best place in the world to live. There are always going to be barriers wherever you go. There will never be a utopian society. Freedom has its limits because of the people who try to abuse the system.

//end of rant

I like living here. Canada is too dang cold.

[Semi-Normal]

Originally posted by tj2001cobra
The U.S. is the best place in the world to live.

Oh, please. Have you lived everywhere else in the world? No, of course not. So how do you know it's the best place in the world to live?

I'm not saying America is a bad place to live, but it never ceases to amaze me how a lot of Americans completely fail to realize that there are plenty of other good places in the world to live in. I'm sure just about any first world country is just as good to live in as the US.

[TaLoN]

the US is the best place to live because our military ownz

[The_Dude]

Originally posted by TaLoN
the US is the best place to live because our military ownz

and?????

what good does that do?


it looks like US is at a much more risk to get attacked by groups than canada is and their military doesnt "own".

their initiatives have definately pleased me and i hope US will follow some of them.

[lafemmefatale]

i've lived in both china [as a child] and canada and visited usa on occasions [but watch cnn so ] and i couldn't claim any place was much better than another.

I prefer liberal and Canada definately offers that nevertheless there are huge problems with it's education [teacher unions = lower quality teaching, no competitiveness, too relaxed etc.] and health care [free=10 year waits for any major surgery].

Despite that, the only reason why i would consider moving to usa in the future would be for money. It's the only reason but its a good reason.

Both countries also have incredibally good traits, however both are FAR FAR FAR from perfect so the best thing to do is to assess your values and then decided on the country. Just never be so naive as to buy into the propaganda that the gov. cranks out about that country.

[CAN_skate]

Oh shit, 'mericans!

[Double D]

Please guys, gals, no cross-country flame throwing.

I think lafemmefatale is a good example of presenting an opinion in a diplomatic, just the facts kind of way.
Let's try to be nice to one another and get beyond this or that country is the *best in the world.*

Now everyone, get in your positions and one another.

[tj2001cobra]

Originally posted by Semi-Normal
Oh, please. Have you lived everywhere else in the world? No, of course not. So how do you know it's the best place in the world to live?

I haven't "lived" in any other countries but I have traveled to plenty of them. I guess it is all about what you want out of life. The way I see it, though, is there is not much around the world that you can't find in the USA. We have all of the climates, all of the scenery, and all of the different types of people from the world. Plus, it is a free country and you can pack up and leave if you want to.

Name another place that has as much to offer as here. You cant do it because there is nowhere near as diverse. Yeah, our political system might not be ther greatest, but at least we can vote on it and we have a say in it.

Our health care sucks but I dont know of a better one. The people in Canada tell you that their is worse than ours.

I dont want to argue about this. I have been to enough places to not take what I have for granted. The fact that I say the US is the best place to live is my opinion. And to me, that is what counts. I'm open to listen to others as well.

[tj2001cobra]

Sorry, I just get bugged when people take what we have here for granted. I will chill out

Originally posted by Double D
Please guys, gals, no cross-country flame throwing.

I think lafemmefatale is a good example of presenting an opinion in a diplomatic, just the facts kind of way.
Let's try to be nice to one another and get beyond this or that country is the *best in the world.*

Now everyone, get in your positions and one another.

[Daval]

Originally posted by tj2001cobra

Our health care sucks but I dont know of a better one. The people in Canada tell you that their is worse than ours.

I would NEVER, EVER say that our health care system is worse than the US's.

Although we can have some nasty line-ups for certain procedures, which they are working on alleviating. There is always the option to go to a private clinic in Hull or Buffalo. BUT, if you can't afford it - all of your basic health needs are covered - 100%.

Our health care system did take a big hit with the current governments, but they are in full reversal mode and piling the dollars back into it that they yanked before.

[titsmurf]

Actually, Norway is the best country in the world, when it comes to the quality of the inhabitants lives. But I'd like to think that's not the point of this thread.

Over here, in europe, many people move to France after a while, because the pace of living is a lot slower there. There's a lot to be said for watching the sheep graze in the fields, whilst enjoying a glass of fine red wine. We call it de-hurrying over here, and - quite ironically - it has become the new big thing.

I do think that, after I've done the whole 'making money fast' thing, I too will escape the rapid-moving industrial world and go to a place where choices are easier, and far less frequent.

The USA, and several other industrialised countries, may be the best places to be if you're looking to make money, and do a lot of exciting things - but as far as living in peace is concerned, after a while I'd long for the slower pace of life in canada as well.

[ARTelevision]

I think it's great that people from the USA who want to move to Canada to live in a more politically "liberal" country can do so.

That's AOK with me.

[Semi-Normal]

First: Sorry, I didn't mean for my last post to come across as a flame. As I said, I'm sure America's a great place to live, and I don't mean to imply that where I live or anywhere else is any better, just that they're probably on a level.

Second: Sorry if I ramble in this post, it's late and I have a tendency to be longwinded when I'm tired.

Originally posted by tj2001cobra
Name another place that has as much to offer as here. You cant do it because there is nowhere near as diverse.

Well I can't name another place like that, but then I haven't travelled much outside of New Zealand, so I'm not qualified to. I plan to do some extensive travelling a few years though.

However, your post gives me the impression that you think diversity is what makes the US, in your opinion, the best place to live. While diversity is great, how much of that diversity do you see while living your day-to-day life, as opposed to travelling around the states? Some, certainly, but I don't think it would be much more than you'd see in your day-to-day life living most other places in the world.

I also think there is more to a good place to live than just diversity. For example, as mentioned above by titsmurf, the standard of living is important, as I think are the kind of people that your countryfolk are. Again, I don't mean to say that NZ is better than the US, but a lot of Americans I have met say that the people over here are (in general, obviously) much friendier. (Their words not mine, for my part I have to say that the majority of the Americans I've met have been great.)

I guess at the end of the day different places have different things going for them, and they will appeal to different people. America's diversity obviously appeals to you, the easy-going nature of my fellow NZers and our clean air and water appeal to me, and other things about other places appeal to other people. It's all just personal opinion, which goes back to what I was getting at in my first post: I don't believe you can just state as a fact that one place is the best place to live.

[sapituca]

Just my 2cents of very, very superficial input:
I've been around the world a few times, lived in Brazil for 20 years (Rio); USA for 9 years (CA, PA, HI), and am now in Canada going on my 2nd year in Vancouver:
The girls are beautiful in Brazil and in Vancouver. In the US, you can find beauty but - generally - it does not come naturally. And people in the US are getting way, way, too fat.
Health care in Brazil and in the US sucks if you have no $ or insurance. In Canada it's not THAT good just because it's free (it isn't - you pay although it's subsidized), but it is MUCH better than the world average. The main difference here is you can not 'buy' treatment in detriment to others that may require more urgent care. If you need urgent care, you will get it no matter how much $ you make, who you work for or what's your family name, if you know what I mean. Is it good treatment? For the most part, yes.
The economy in Canada breathes on the US economy. If the US sneezes, Canada catches pneumonia. I am not even going to comment on Brazilian economy (or politics).
The US is way too focused on free enterprise and is too insular at this point. Canada is clearly heading the other way, adopting a European approach to things. I prefer the Canadian approach.
Public education in the US varies greatly depending on ZIP code.
In Canada, it's a bit better overall. If you go private, all three countries offer great schools - but cost is high. Public education in Brazil is the cause of many of that country's maladies.
Middle class in the US is huge, in Brazil is almost extinct and in Canada it is poorer than the US (you will have to live with a Toyota Camry instead of a Lexus).
Brazilian and US populations groups are huge and prone to class/race friction, Canadian population is a minimal fraction of both and although there's segmentation, it seems less prone to attrition (maybe because it's too cold to bother?).
In Canada and Brazil nudity on TV and public media are a common occurrence and are no cause for a national homeland security meeting.
In Canada it seems you will be soon able to smoke pot while marrying your same-sex partner undisturbed. In Brazil, while you can do pretty much anything undisturbed, you still can not legally do any of the above. On the other side, in the US (the land of the free) you can buy a .44 magnum with ease in most states, but you may be arrested for smoking a joint in your hot tub, for having an open alcohol container on your street of for selling Maxim at K-Mart.
Brazil is stuck with patriarchs, the US is heading back to Victorianism.

[tj2001cobra]

Originally posted by Semi-Normal
While diversity is great, how much of that diversity do you see while living your day-to-day life, as opposed to travelling around the states? Some, certainly, but I don't think it would be much more than you'd see in your day-to-day life living most other places in the world.

Actually, Austin, Texas is extremely culterally diverse. Not so much as New York City or some of the other huge cities, but each day is a random adventure. The city has a large Asian, Hispanic, Black, Indian, and just about any other nationality that you are looking for.

As for my above comments, I think I went over the top. I think my statement should have been "if you dont like it here, you are free to leave." It sounds arrogant saying that I live in the best country. Sorry for that. There are alot of places around the world tht have a lot to offer.

I just like this being my home base

[RAMONES!!!]

i love canada, no offense USA

[YourNeverThere]

Sapituca, that was a great post, i think you said excatly what i was thinking better than i would have said it.

p.s. get out of my head!

[splck]

But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa - the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.

Since Canada has about ten percent of the population as the states it would appear that more people are moving to Canada on a percentage basis.

I've lived in the US for three years down in Tampa FL about 17 years ago and my sister lived in LA for six years in the mid 80's. I also have many friends in Washington state that I visit regularly so I have an idea what it’s like in the US. I never understood the concept that US citizens have more freedoms and a better quality of life than anyone else does in the world. I can do everything and anything I want, as long as it is legal in Canada just the same as any American. I have lots of friends and family in the Netherlands and Sweden, and if you ask me, they enjoy just as much freedom and an even better quality of life as any one of us on this side of the Atlantic.

Canada is my home and will always be my first choice for a place to live, but I would never talk down to a citizen of a different country, it would only show a shallow, close-minded attitude, one that I loath.

Blind patriotism sucks.

[remiel]

I've lived in England and in the USA and I have good things to say about both. Some things are better in the USA (cheap broadband, better radio stations, much better fast food) and some are better in England (healthcare, welfare, cheap college, better beer)

I wouldn't say either is better, I also wouldn't say either is the best country in the world.

I wouldn't mind living in canada for a year just to see what it's like

[remiel]

Originally posted by splck
Since Canada has about ten percent of the population as the states it would appear that more people are moving to Canada on a percentage basis.

isn't it the other way round? A larger percentage of the canadian population is leaving for the US than the percentage of the US population leaving for Canada?

[MacGnG]

CANADALAND! i dunno sure it SEEMS better but is it really, i dunno? that is a serious move and nothing to be taken lightly.

[uncle phil]

this thread makes no sense to me, whatsoever...

[splck]

Originally posted by remiel
isn't it the other way round? A larger percentage of the canadian population is leaving for the US than the percentage of the US population leaving for Canada?

Yup, you're right...I think....I blame the beer