It isn't a monetary thing. It's about contribution. I spend a lot of time making sure that mechanically and technically this place hums along nicely. If the community doesn't want to participate, I can't force them to just like they can't force me to continue to operate the place.

I think your post is just fine and not problematic at all. The title of the thread had to be provocative, otherwise, people won't read it or participate in it.

Thanks, I've noted that you've been posting more threads even before I brought his up. It's much appreciated.

It usually has a spike when it's mentioned, both donations and calls for activity.
Some that left I still talk to in other venues like Facebook. For some an off the cuff remark from some member was enough to walk away, others just didn't find it interesting any more. It's hard to build regulars be it any business that hold for over 5 years.

I'm not really searching for answers to why they left. I'd like to just encourage those that stay to do more than lurk. Forums are like life, it's a participatory thing. It gets more interesting when you participate instead of just watch.

That's why I didn't respond at first... then I took a few days to really think about it, and about reasons why I don't contribute as much.

Part of it was personal...there were a couple of threads a while back where I got a very "well, your opinion sucks, and you're wrong" vibe from a couple different people. I stopped posting in those threads, and avoided those people in other threads as well.

Part of it was facebook. I have about 30 TFP members listed as friends, so things I'd cross-post in the past, I won't now... repetition and all that. ("most of the people that would respond have already done so on facebook.")

And part of it is just life. Huge change in my life went down in June (for those of you who don't know, if there are any :), I moved to NC from Ohio.) New job, new living arrangements, new town, new dog... major transition period for me, and I tended to shy away from everything and everyone, online and off.


Goodness, I'm starting to ramble. Anyway, those are my reasons, which I suspect aren't all that different from other people's reasons. Changing the site won't help that. I'm really hoping there aren't any drastic changes, because I love TFP the way that it is. So, while I'm not a huge fan of the way this was worded (sorry, cynth), the point is, indeed, taken.

I haven't been here long, so I find it hard to define a specific group or clique, but I still feel it every time I'm here. I agree with many of the previous points concerning clique vs. everyone else. It may just be these individuals share a common opinion on many subjects or maybe they're just a$$holes. I don't know. In RL they may be and likely are some of the coolest people I'd know. On the internet, your Trolls.

I found this forum with the search phrase: ''obscure point of view". What I found was a core of a few individuals who enjoy shoving their opinion down every ones throat. While attacking anyone with a different point of view. WTF?? I was looking for a diverse group of non-mainstream people conversing and expressing their opinions in an environment conducive to being different. If that's not the intent of the forum, fine, I'll look elsewhere, but it sure reads like diversity is the intent. Not the opinions of a few vs. those less able to express themselves clearly.

I understand most of what's posted is likely not intended to read the way it does, but this is the internet. Sarcasm doesn't translate. So make your intent known.

-------------------------------------------
Average TFP post:

4: Hey, I found a six dicked frog on my front porch this morning. Take a look.
pic: frog :pic

2: That's not a six dicked frog, that's a hermaphroditic toad in menses. Know your facts before you post.

3: Yeah, idiot.

2: Can you believe how stupid everyone else is?

6: No shit, what a fuckin' moron.

4: I looked it up and that was the closest pic I could find to the actual frog.

8: quote "Can you believe how stupid everyone else is?" quote
Learn some Grammar

7: In Canada they're all 5 dicked frogs. A Blue Moose Caterpillar ate the phalanges off the genome of the first ever group to migrate this far north. They've since evolved to become 5 dicked frogs to avoid the Blue Moose Caterpillar.

2: Did you see the Jackalope on Oblaba head at the rally?

6: That was great!

2: (unrelated pic)

6: (unrelated pic)

3: (unrelated pic)

9: That is definitely a 6 dicked frog, I have four on my kitchen table right now! Know your facts idiot!
pic: retard in a wheel chair :pic

2: $&*%^ It was the RED moose caterpillar that nearly wiped out the first northern migration of the six dicked frog. And that has nothing to do with this conversation we're talking about Toads and Jackalopes.

8: You're all wrong, that's a lizard.
---------------------------------------

Who wants to be the OP?


This forum has the potential to be incredible, but as in life, there are always a few who are so lonely and sad. They have to turn to the internet for their self satisfying mental masturbation at the expense of others. Most don't even realize it because they have no social skills, some do and just do it out of spite. Yeah, I know it sucked for you growing up. Everyone teased you, beat you up, took your lunch money. Get over it. Grow up. Evolve.

I'm slowly coming to believe that this forum is over run by highly intelligent, 13yo's with nothing better to do than mock others and flog their frogs on the WWW.

Other than that, the premise is awesome, it's the application that's lacking.

Let the feathers fly.


Oh yeah and the 'sign in' times out way too fast. I don't think I've ever made a post that I didn't have to 'copy', 'sign in', 'paste'. To actually post.

Can you point to an example of this dynamic in action? I don't recall having seen any recent threads that have gone this way. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.

I've heard about this clique, but never been able to actually pin it down. Maybe I'm too deep inside or something, I don't know.

^^
If you were "looking for a diverse group of non-mainstream people conversing & expressing their opinions in an environment conducive to being different," I daresay you've found it. My level of confidence in saying that is undiminished.
...Probably you should edit your "Average TFP post?"
This pot's calling the kettle <sarcasm>.

waves to Rogue Gypsy.... welcome!

Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa, so someone can translate sarcasm. I stand corrected.

What do you have against 6 dicked frogs?

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:15 PM ----------

waving back!

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

There may not be any recent posts, I haven't posted in a while due to encountering too many in the past. Look back 12-18 months and you'll find them. I believe that's also about the same time the OP says things took a down turn. I, like many others, will avoid confrontation when possible and the topic of this thread supports this. If I want monkeys throwing feces, I'll go to the zoo.

Like I said above, I can't seem to define a specific clique. So if you're in it, you'd have to tell me.



If I do need to edit my "6 dicked frog" commentary, I can certainly do that. I was unaware the TFP was PG-13. If it is, my bad. Most forums that are, moderate language automatically informing the user of inappropriate language. Let me know.

The French are allowed to flog their own frogs dammit!

Rogue Gypsy, we don't have any rules about language other than flaming and trolling. Curse all you want. Or don't.

What I gather from your responses is that you don't have any examples for your hypothetical threads and that you can't define any clique. Which makes it very hard for anyone to understand exactly what it is you're talking about.

What am I missing?

There's no reason to get defensive.

I think I understand the clique thing. Most cliques develop without people inside of it noticing. As roachboy mentioned above, there's almost certainly a clique in TFPolitics, though no one in it intended for it to happen.

well, there's not exactly a clique.
people don't really get along all that well. but there's a consistent population. so a community i guess.

a clique is more exclusionary. if what's being referred to here by "clique" is just a consistent group that post to the same space, then the word's being misused in a way that might be creating more static than anything else.

I have no idea where the thread that RogueGypsy is playing off of is located, but I want to party with those guys.

Yes, but think about how that environment might be for a newcomer. I'm not saying it's intentional, I'm just saying we might be accidentally exclusionary.

Sadly, this is a trend that has been seen on most forums across the internet. I'm outdated, so I do not know what the "new" thing is....but I am a member of probably 50-100 forums, and ALL of the large ones have basically died.

I think forums have surpassed their peak, as bad as I hate to admit it. I own one, and I have seen the same.

As odd as it sounds, it really seems like the internet communities have started to plateau or decline....including places like myspace and whatnot.

The new generation skipped the forums....the the mature users have slowly tapered off.

It makes me nervous, because last time I added it up I have a quarter million posts on forums.....but in 5 years I do not know how many will be left.

I believe the 'clique' people are referring to is simply the group of regulars who (even though they might not all like each other) interact with each other consistently due to familiarity and a bit of a camaraderie-type feeling. Those who are new to the community are largely left out of those exchanges, you can't deny it, and it's those exchanges that make you feel like you are a part of the community. Having been fairly 'close' to this site in the past, leaving a couple of times and coming back a couple of times, I think I'm in a pretty good position to attest to the truth of this phenomena. The flack that is being raised seems to be coming more from the folks who want to disallow the existence of said 'clique' (which probably isn't the most accurate description...in fact, I like comrades) than the folks who are saying 'um, yeah it does.' It's not anyone's fault. It's just the way it is.

And I imagine that the majority of the most frequent contributors here went through a phase as newcomers when they didn't feel so much a part of things, but then one day, maybe without even noticing it, they did. That's the way it was for me. I think I've written that about a dozen times here on similar threads. So instead of telling newcomers they are wrong for feeling 'outside the fun' most of the time, you should acknowledge that it's normal and encourage them to be patient and keep posting.

Hi,

New person here. :D

The first post I jumped into and this is it~ Karma loves to smack me around.

Anyway, I chose this place from several others because it had a mix of topics. Several topics I want to read about and others I want to laugh about...

Sorry to say, I am not a big OP but I will comment- in terrible English, mores the pity. :lol:

This is only my second non game related forum. Be gentle. :)

I'd hate to see TFP go away. This place has been has helped me out in so many ways. Unfortunately, I just don't have to patience to keep up with a 3-5 page forum thread anymore. I pretty much use Ventrilo for all my conversations now. It's faster and easier than typing in a chat room and more personal than a forum discussion while not being invasive like a webcam. I honestly don't know why Vent isn't more popular with non-gaming communities.

So, basically:

TFP: "Evolve or TFP dies."

TFPers: "But that's too much work!"

America: Fuck Yeah.

Well I went looking for some of the threads that brought this to mind. Most were in the political section. Which in itself is volatile, but it's where I've spent most of my time here. Unfortunately while the forum lists 4618 posts, only 29 appear. Basically October??? Don't know what's up with that. So you're on your own with that one, as it occurred to me as I was looking, that you had just done what I was talking about.

I simply stated my opinion, which several others seemed to understand, but you returned with a statement suggesting I'd just made it up in order to troll the thread. So there's you example, mild as it may be.

As to a clique existing. Maybe it's just seeing the same 8 or so people replying to each others posts in threads, seemingly disregarding the OP and other posters. Maybe they just like to chat amongst themselves, but to someone not of the 8, it appears to be an elitist clique. Regardless, do as you will.

Interestingly enough, my post being a response to the OP, leads me to wonder why you responded in the way you did? Is it perhaps that you see the same thing, but from another side? What is it that compels an individual to respond directly to a post if it has nothing to do with them?



---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------


You Sir, are an Ass. Never change, that's awesome.

---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

I absolutely agree. I'm not sure if this was a response to me or not, but the above 'average TFP thread' was based on my experience in the politics section. I should have titled it 'Average TFPolitics thread'.

No. I will not let you do that. You claimed that TFP engages in such distasteful behavior so the onus is on you to provide evidence of said performance. I will echo OCM and say, once again, TFP is the exact opposite of what you posited in your little "frog" commentary. Sarcasm intended or not, you were taking a shot.

Otherwise your just trolling us and we probably shouldn't engage.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe there's a 'clique' or whatever the hell we're calling it. The very fact that several of us have mentioned this should be proof it's a prevalent feeling. Consider those of us who do contribute even despite this feeling. What about those newcomers who are less vocal or a little timid about putting themselves on the line, anonymity or not?

When I first joined, I was pretty blown away by the intelligence shown here. I even commented here and there, but it pretty much felt like I was on my own. Then I posted some artwork I'd drawn and actually got some responses and insight: That was the first time, in probably a month, that I felt welcome. That was after a month.

You don't see it, or maybe you're just used to it, but when you comment negatively toward each other in areas newcomers can see it, it creates a very hostile environment. They're probably thinking, "Wow, look at how they treat themselves-and they've known each other forever!" Why would they want to respond? Why would they want to create new threads? So they could get the same treatment?

I don't know what to do about that, besides welcoming newcomers more and putting ourselves on the line for them first. I've been trying to do that a little in the new users area, but I'm not always available very often.

I missed the new welcome thread before I posted this, so I just wanted to add I think that's an awesome start. Whoever thought of that, you're great =)

What you will or will not allow of me is interesting. Being a sport, I will, when the 4000+ pages of TFpolitics reappears find you an example. Or maybe not, I guess it depends on my mood at the time.

It's appropriate that the "Evolve or Die" thread would bring out the aggressive behaviors that seem to be the cause of the decline of the forum. Yes, I said aggressive. You did not just say you disagree or sight an example disproving my 'frog' thread. You tell me "I will not let you do that", "the onus is on you". Who are you to dictate what others may or may not do or say? Disagreeing with someone is inevitable, telling someone you won't allow them to do something is aggressive. Frankly, if you're unicorns and rainbows experience here was indicative of the norm, this thread likely wouldn't have been started. To jump up and demand satisfaction is insulting and offensive.

Of course it was sarcastic and it was a shot. What else would it be? Did you think someone actually had that conversation? Okay, maybe Plan9 would have that conversation, but not this time.

No, the example is not indicative of the entire forum. As I said above, I should have titled it 'Average TFPolitics thread'. That's where I've spent most of my time and with what I'm most familiar.

And so here I sit, after typing my OPINION in response to the OP, defending my opinion?????? Do you really wonder why it's in decline. Really?? So, No, there is no onus on me to provide evidence of my opinion. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you can't help reading, don't reply, if you can't help but reply, don't expect anyone to follow your demands.

I understand loving something and defending it, but when something is broken and opinions are solicited to improve and repair it. The appropriate response is to evaluate the criticism, formulate a resolution and implement a plan to correct the problem. Not claim everything is Sunshine and Roses to you, so everyone else better prove their opposing experience.

Once again, it's not about disagreeing with someone, it's how you disagree with them. And while their may be a core group who understands each others postures, no one else does. Leading us to where we are now. Once again an outsider defending an opinion to the core elite.

---------- Post added at 01:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

"Why? Well in the beginning it was because I was intimidated. I then tried posting more as I became more comfortable with the people on the site. I am not someone who is afraid to voice my opinion, that is until someone takes what I say out of context or twists it to suit their own point. While I have no problem being outspoken, I do have a problem beating my head against a wall trying to defend myself for something I did not really say. Problem is, people seem to assume the worst about others and thus misinterpret posts and even thread starters (ie feminine vs female, this is not meant as a jab, just an example on the top of my head).

The last issue I see is that many threads break down into an incestuous circle jerk. While it is amusing to read, there is not much point in trying to respond to the OP if no one is going to read that when the circus side show is so much more entertaining."



The above is a quote by Starkizzer a forum member who's been here much longer than I. This last paragraph is exactly what my 'frog' thread is all about. I know I'm not the only one who sees it. The point being all along, that this is what most new people see too. That is your core dynamic.

I prefer the term dummy, but I'll accept your compliment. I'll be as honest as I can with as little sarcasm as possible in this thread.

To all those quiet types at the board that secretly can't stand me, you probably don't like me because of something I said.

/actual point of thread

...

Dude, you can't even begin to put Politics in the same category with the rest of the board. That's just not fair.

Not even Weaponry's Bear Hunter and Very Stern and Masterful Gaze threads come close to Politics.

Big fucking deal, that's the core dynamic of any group that has spent YEARS talking to each other. It's not about disagreeing, it's about how, right? Well, I'm going to disagree with Jazz and Manic Skafe in a more dick fashion because I "know" them. Once again, there is no "elite." There are just people that "know" each other and people who don't, new people or people that don't post. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, WillRavel and MSD and myself are talking about the joy of flux capacitors in a thread about DeLoreans and some new guy chimes in about X-Y-Z on the time machine. It doesn't matter if the "elites" agree or not (probably won't), we just know each other enough to cut the pretense and get to the core issue. Granted, that often leads to inside jokes and other threadjacking behavior. I assure you that WillRavel and MSD and I disagree on plenty of things and probably wouldn't like each other much in real life without the assistance of alcohol. Good TFPers, from what I've seen, add substance before they squirt humor on top. As much as I dislike Our Lord and Savior Fugly, even he has enough of a 50/50 commentary/bullshit format to avoid being lumped in the one-liner-dispensing asshole category (although maybe not recently, I haven't been paying attention). So, in conclusion: there is no elite; just crusty fucks, silent fucks, and new fucks.

Everybody in the "intimidation" crowd needs to stop being so goddamn emo. It's the anonymous Intarweb. Zero pressure. Put yourself out there. There is bound to be friction. It's just text on a screen. You'll live. And from what I've seen myself and heard others say, you might actually learn a thing or two.

Hmm. Given the opportunity, I would change my username to SgtMaj Douchebag and change my user title to Xerxys' TFP Elite Crowd.

When I first joined, it took about three months for me to get any sort of meaningful response from people here so you can just about consider yourself a social butterfly.

I still don't think any of you jerkfaces love me how I want to be loved. :p

That's because you have your page set to only view threads within the last 30 days. You can change that setting in the bottom of the page on the right. So, again, you've made a pretty bold statement that bothers me quite a bit. If it's true (and I'm not saying that it is or it isn't), then I've been focusing on the wrong problems for a long time. So, please, show me an example so that we can start working on solutions. If you can't give me concrete examples, we can't fix the issue. If your big complaint is about Politics, I'm honestly at a loss as to what to do about it since I see it as a pretty accurate reflection of modern society. And that's a bad thing.

Maybe its the fact that I haven't been getting enough sleep for the past 6 months, maybe its my personal life leaking through, maybe it's a lot of other outside influences, but I'm pretty certain that I'm offended at this. As you yourself pointed out, it's difficult to communicate tone of voice in the written word. Yet you somehow have interpreted my question as accusatory. Willravel apparently fell into the same trap. I'm simply asking for clarifcation so that I can understand your point and how to address it. Clearly I'm not the only one who needs an example so instead of jumping on the bandwagon and assuming the worst about me, how about just taking a deep breath and give a thoughtful response? I have the distinct feeling that if just about anyone else had their name beside that post, you would have answered differently.

As for the post being a response to the OP, frankly there's no way around that. You joined the conversation midstream but you raised some good points. Yet somehow I'm in the wrong for asking you for examples of those points and to elaborate.

I automatically conceed that this exists, but I don't necessarily see it as a problem. You know what it takes to be one of those 8 people? Posting. Then all of a sudden there are 9. The off-topic issue is something we need to work on and all be more vigilent about, but I personally have a hard time dictating to folks what direction a conversation must take.

The other thing, and I think that this is important, is that it's not the same 8 people in all the forums. If you look in Weapons, those folks are different than the ones in Politics, who are different than the ones in General Discussion, who are different than the ones in Fun Zone, who are different than the EZ who are different than the ones.... well, I hope my point is clear.

Wasn't there a thread similar to this a few months back?
I get a sense of deja vu reading this.

Yeah, these run about every 9 months. We were overdue this time, though.

If I remember the thread correctly, it was basically the same as this one. Newer members commenting on cliques and a feeling of being outsiders and established members not understanding what they are talking about and wondering why post counts are down.
I understand what RG and FA are trying to say. I don't think its anything that can be "documented", just an underlying feel to the board.
I don't think the established members are hostile towards or unwilling to accept new members.
I think its just a core group that know each other very well. Breaking into and establishing yourself can be difficult in those situations. Ground has been covered, points have been conceded and conversational protocols have been established.

Thats just my $0.02

The thing that I don't get about the whole "clique" perception is that it's so ridiculously easy to join the "inner circle" that I have a hard time feeling sorry for folks that feel left out. And I'm frankly surprised at some of the folks that do feel left out since my perception is that they're part of the inner circle.

I think that the problem here is perception, and I don't know how to change that. One of my favorite sayings about this place is that perception is reality. If you think you're on the outside you are. If you think you're in, you're in. There's not much that the staff can ever do to change that.

Jazz, maybe it's as simple as me having a PM sent out when the user registers welcoming them to the space, and reinforcing it again a month or so later to check in on them.

In that PM it says something very specific like "If you don't feel like you're part of the in crowd, just post responses and you'll quickly find yourself part of the community really quickly. Every single person in the community and on staff here started the same way, including myself, that is by jumping feet first into the conversation and participating."

I think it should not only go out to newbies but also to those old timers who lurk and not have posted for 8 years.

Maybe, Cyn. Maybe that would work. I just don't know. I think it would be A Nice Thing, but I don't know if that would be enough to encourage folks. If you look at some of the idiots who have signed up lately (and I'm speaking exclusively of most of the one-post wonders who may or may not be spammers), I don't know if we want to encourage them to stick around.

As you and I have discussed ad infinitum, there are no simple answers to the vast majority of these problems.

You don't want to seem overeager, though.

Play it cool. She'll come around.

Just wanted to say- Most sites I've visited and the few I've joined have a Welcome section where the new person posts a "Hi, I'm New!!11oneone" topic of their own. ;)

I noticed you have a thread for people to comment in if they are new or the regulars to welcome them.
While some people don't post a Hi thread a lot of people do. It would increase your post count and give the new person their first post of their own.
I realize it's only a small drop... :)
And, I do understand I'm new and haven't seen what was before and change because it wasn't working. :)

Can you go back to playing the old WillRavel? Or at least the Welsh WillRavel? This one is scaring me.

Where did it go? I could have sworn I was quoted about the Welcome section... :(

Oh, well. Onward...

I like that idea, Cat_Eyes. That way we could respond to newcomers on a more individual basis, help them be comfortable about participating.

I don't really understand the stand-offish, don't be too eager attitude. What is that? Playing it cool? Pfft. I think that kind of attitude may contribute to feelings of not being 'cool' enough to play with the other folks.

And it is not easy for everyone, Jazz. And you know what else? With the exception of a few folks, Crompsin for instance, some of the people who 'jumped in' and became 'popular' swiftly here turned out to be assholes that are long gone (Woods and Midnight, for example come to mind...I know there are others). Some personalities, a lot of good, interesting personalities, aren't quite as vivacious and forthcoming with information because they aren't raging egomaniacs that believe the world is hanging by a thread waiting to hear what they have to say. Know what I mean? I think your expectations are far too narrow and possibly not conducive to your desires for this place. For what it's worth, you know...

MM - I really don't understand this response. Can you restate it?

And, your portal page- I believe that is the right word- is, well.... nonexistent.

While I don't think you want flash and pow (or ads), something to catch the eye and feel open instead of this bulletin style. Which is fine for the Forum list but a portal welcomes the new people, catches the passers by.

Something which shows what's going on inside...
Newest Topics
Hottest Topics
Topic of the Week/day
Pictures
Spotlight an uploaded picture/Story a Member created- Art Work or an Event if there is one.
Showing the list of Users with Avatars- maybe and/or Listing the Online Users bigger

Something to catch the passerby's attention and gets them curious and into the discussion.

I did read how you work at keeping this going, I don't know how much more work it would take to maintain a portal page.

...

Just that it is not, as you purported, easy for everyone to get to the point where they feel like, my word, a comrade here. That statement is dismissive and, yes, exclusionary. Rather than addressing people's perceptions that they are not being heard, it writes them off. How are people who are posting but don't feel they are being heard supposed to process that? You want to keep people here, or what?

I stand by my assessment that it is best to be accepting of people's perceptions and take reasonable measures to ameliorate them. And, in fact, just acknowledging them without passing judgment could go a long way toward calming the waters.

mm :) I miss you round these parts :) glad to see you stopping by.

Jay, yes there was one. I'd redo it, but it's so jammed up in the back end here because of well we've been using this since vbulletin 2.x.

It is one of the reasons why I'd like to push us to vbulletin 4.x, but it really is a lot of work. My full rehearsals take about 4 hours to complete from start to finish not including if the upgrade shits the bed.

A portal page should take care of itself to some degree, but there should be some governance and highlighted items to bring things forward.

The problem has to do with fashion.general purpose forums are dying in the era of social networks. To chat and discuss things with their friends people now use facebook.

When there is a specific question they need answered they go to specialized forums. It closely models specialization in the real world.

That, and people are getting busier. As sad as it is a lot of the fine folks who made this site great have moved on and have no time to just sit around and post.

:(

If that's the case, MM, then I see no solutions to the problems you're pointing out. Do you?

Personally, I make it a point to read the posts of folks that I don't recognize and to directly respond to them when I have something to add. Beyond that, I'm at a loss. But maybe I'm part of the problem instead of the solution. That seems to be where this is going.

Believe me, I understand the whole perception thing. I've understood that for years. But I'll be damned if I can figure out a way to force people to post. Perhaps it's time to shut down TFP as it is now and start completely new. That's about the only way that I can think that we'd have a level playing field.

If you think that I was being dismissive and exclusionary before, I'm sure you'll love this: I never said that it was EASY to get people to know you. I said it was SIMPLE. It's hard work. But if someone wants to, it's a simple process, and one that only the person in question has control over.

And to double-down: it's not the staff's job to make people like each other. We'd love it if everyone sang "I'd Like To Buy the World A Coke" in three part harmony, but that's about the extent of it. If someone won't help themselves, that's on them. Personally, I find differing opinions to be much more interesting, but that's me.

I'm more than willing to find new people to like - honestly it's one of the things that keeps me coming back every day, hoping that there's someone new that has something interesting to say. But if they're not going to share, then maybe you've got a magic wand you can lend to us to get them to change their minds. No one here needs to apologize for having friends on the board, but erasing those relationships (or somehow moving this completely off the board) seems to be the only workable solution.

In closing, I'll bet that if we had a blind poll of folks with the question of "who's part of the inner cirlce" or somesuch and coupled it with "do you feel like you're a part of the inner circle", the results would show everybody thinks everyone else is in while that individual is out. I know for a fact that there are folks on staff that feel like they're on the outside.

If people are feeling ostracized by cliques or what not around here then its a problem, we can discuss the hows or whys or weather its reasonable or silly but if its causing new users not to participate and a great forum to die, then no matter how you cut it its a concern.

Having said that I have no idea how to fix it and really I'm not sure if it should be fixed. If we start dictating how we interact with one another the general purpose of why we're here in the first place is lost anyway. This forum just reflects the real world and as in real life new comers wind up with the burden of having to get to know everybody and find their own niche, its just the way the world works.

I like Cyns idea of sending out a PM to new users, for a new user it might be a little intimidating to just jump in and go with the flow with the pace and subjects of some of the topics here. Perhaps a simple greeting, basic rules/philosophy of the forum and a helpful push on how/where to just jump in might go a long way in turning a curious new poster into somebody that helps breathe life into the forum.

Anyway I hope we can get this figured out, I've loved spending my free time here and it would be a shame to lose it.

Those are all some interesting observations. While I know that the navel gazing is really stressful to me, it's when the discussion gets to the meat of why we interact the way we do, not just here, but I can start to imagine why high school or college wasn't fun (bullying and greek systems aside) if one doesn't participate.

I was at a wedding this weekend, it was one of the funnest weddings I was ever at, Skogafoss and I went as Professor and school girl, and another couple was a zombie couple, and the best was Lela and Bender. The whole night was fun until the dance floor opened and after about an hour, Skogafoss looked at me and asked what was the matter. I responded that I was bored because I know she doesn't like to dance, she just sits and watches. I like to dance. I like to dance. I like to dance. I find it fun and a good time to just move my body around. She told me to go ahead and dance, and I replied, "But I want to dance with you." After a few more songs, she got up and danced a slow dance with me to Righteous Bros. "Unchained Melody" While it fulfilled what I had said I wanted, it really wasn't what I wanted. I wanted some "Kick off your shoes Footloose" dancing.

So a friend of ours saw us sitting way in the back of the room and she said, "Why oh why are you two not dancing???" It was the same conversation, and Skogafoss said that she isn't prohibiting me from going. So our friend gabbed my hand and took me to the dance floor.

I had a great time dancing to about 5 songs and then I was just plum worn out.

Now I could have just sat back in the room and lamented that I wasn't participating or dancing with the rest of the folks. I wasn't part of the "in crowd". Ultimately I had a great time.

Now what does this have to do with this thread? It can't be forced upon people to participate. I can only remind people that they should participate, and invite them to participate and keep an open manner for them to participate. Ultimately, it is up to the individual.

MM, yes, you are right some of those that jump right in can show themselves are complete nutjobs. I don't that it's mutually exclusive but it is not much different to any interaction that we have with each other as human beings.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I don't think that we're responsible any more than providing the framework. Unless a staff member actually does something to another individual directly like edit their post unfairly or troll them, we can't effectively be members first, staff second.

Wes, there is a simple dictation of interaction we put upon all users. Don't be an asshole, don't troll. Really should also be, "Don't just read discussions, you'll get more out of it if you add to the discussions."

We can't force people, we can just encourage.

I'll be a squeaking wheel - again

Currently Active Users: 397 (35 members and 362 guests)

Any idea how to get those 362 guests to become members?

There has to be an incentive to register. Otherwise they are burning bandwidth with no compensation at all. As it is it looks like only 8% of bandwidth used is by the members.

And as a side note, I don't think I've seen more than 40 members online whenever I've checked. I'm sure there has been more, just never noticed. But I expected more. Maybe the activity being generated is as much as can be hoped for by the few members that are logged in at any one time.

Sorry, let me put it this way -Look how long I've been a member. I was with TFP even before that, but got banned for being under 18. That's a long time. I've been dormant here for years, but quasi-active on other forums because they had specific topics I was interested in.

The only way to increase participation is to find a specialization, something that makes TFP "the go-to place" for a certain topic.

...

"Currently Active Users: 397 (35 members and 362 guests)"

Craven,these numbers are a bit misleading. Many members lurk the board without
logging in & it's also possible to be logged in with the Romulan Cloaking Device activated.

Cyn, I like your wedding story. 'tis fitting.
I'm glad you had fun dancing.

I have to wonder if the niche of people who would seek out and post on a forum like this are by-and-large introverts or nerds/freaks/queers/geeks/dropouts who would feel 'rejected' and not part of the in-crowd even if they were.

I'd wager my magnificent arrogance (what mm so eloquently called "raging egomaniac that believes the world is hanging by a thread waiting to hear what they have to say ") is the main reason I come back.

If true, I'd wager it's hard to ever make someone feel like part of the 'in group' and even if it were feasible to somehow encourage the wary en masse I don't think it would be the solution to a dearth of posts.

I don't think a PM will do much, Cyn. Whenever I get something impersonal, which would be the mass-new user-PM, I skip it over without reading or thinking about it. Maybe other people read the fine print, but I don't.

For an answer to the question to get people to register/post: instead of allowing non-registered users to see everything (all posts, new and old), would it be possible to limit them to see only the past few weeks active topics? That suggestion is for the non-registered users lurking around. A suggestion for the non-posters would be...well, that's a toughy. If they're registered and not posting, it's because they don't have anything to add (from their POV, at least). Would a PM or email encouraging me to post more actually get me to post more? Probably not, I'd say the chances are between zero and five percent.

I liked your story too, Cyn..

Something my mom used to say that stuck with me, and was vaguely paraphrased here recently..

"If you don't like it, you might as well enjoy yourself, because we're all here anyway. If you don't, well, you're just going to have to sit and watch. That's life."

I can't speak for those that don't post more often/don't even register. All I can do is suggest possible reasons, and while some of us have given such reasons, many of us are saying, "Well why not? It's just the internet-who cares?"

There's a thread about 4chan and, specifically, the /b/ section of the website, and why its denizens are such asshats. For those of you that are unfamiliar, /b/ is a pretty lawless, unconstrained place, even for the web. Most people agree-it's the way it is because it's totally anonymous.

Obviously here at the TFP, we have a consistent persona. People will remember what you said before, and their responses may well be colored from this knowledge. However, there truly is a degree of anonymity even here. Many of us keep this 'site to ourselves for varying but similar reasons-and because of this, we say things we probably wouldn't in the presence of our real life friends. Can you imagine having some of the same conversations about the same topics with people you know face-to-face?

Now I say this tempered with the understanding that because we can freely say things here, we can have some pretty awesome discussions, and I feel like all of us have been changed at least in small part because we participate in this forum.

That said, many people don't see these distinctions. The fact that what they say won't follow them home doesn't occur to some people. All they see is conflict, and why would they want that if they only wanted to talk about what everyone thought of the possibility of a space elevator (random topic off the top of my head), and not why their opinion or such-and-such's opinion is better? We have to encourage them, get them to open up, share their thoughts and ideas. Prove to them that we want to hear their point of view, and that we're truly listening.

It seems like the biggest problem is people aren't participating and there is really nothing we can do to make them so... (brought to you by capt obvious)

... I agree there really is no way to "fix" the problems being talked about, the community has followed its own natural progression (not to mention changing internet trends) and what we have today is simply a result of that. If it comes down to having to shut down due to cost, time and such would it be productive to maybe scale back the forum to better represent its current size and function? Personally I have no clue how a place like this is run or how one would go about saving on space or money but perhaps removing ancient threads and cutting out sections that get little to no use might be helpful in making this place easier to run, more cost effective and less time consuming.

Perhaps if that works then slowly rebuild and retool as the site grows and changes. If the forum is consuming less time/energy/money it would free up more resources to try out different gimmicks and ideas that would promote the forum and hopefully help it grow.

Anyway just thought I'd throw that out there.

I speak for myself
in an obnoxious manner:
Nice thread you made, Cyn!

How do you know that it's impersonal? For a good long while we have a few staffers that send a birthday greetings on someone's birthday. It is a personal touch that someone felt would be good to do.

I have already limited what non-registered people can see to the point that it locks them out and asks them to register. The large number you see of guests, isn't all people. Most of it are bots and spiders crawling all over our forum posting back to their site in hopes that someone will search and find something on their search engine.

I too wanted to find out who these guests were and I was surprised at how many there were that were just spiders and bots.

I've been pondering the wedding a bit more, and the more I think about it the part where I was entertained by someone else was what was making it fun. Everyone dressed up and there were some funny bits with toasts and the bride and groom made Trivial Pursuit cards for themselves using them as name plates for everyone. It was fun to read them aloud and it got people at the table talking to each other. We were at the Dungeons and Dragons table and they said they played D&D with some of us but wouldn't out us. Well, isn't that a good ice breaker right there? I had to know if Lela the hot chick was a D&D player. It was something that was provided by the hosts... but once it was up to us to be responsible for ourselves to some degree, it was lost.

I'm not suggesting that there is some magic fix to make people feel like they belong. Just that people can be responded to more effectively than has been done on this thread. Acknowledgment rather than dismissal and judgment. That is simple, too.

I liked Cyn's idea about the messages, it's an ideal avenue for expressing an understanding that sometimes people struggle with finding a place here at first, that it's normal and doesn't mean that they aren't valued, blah, blah, blah. Keep posting and if you have any questions or comments let us know, yadda, yadda, yadda. I mean, essentially endeavoring to build and retain membership here is similar to building a client base for a business. You don't do that by telling clients that they're wrong, end of story when they call customer service with a problem.

Obviously many, many people find it intimidating to post for whatever reason. They may be insecure or shy. They may not think of themselves as good writers...for what it's worth, you have a number of people who express themselves very effectively, very often and often with a lot of wit. They may see a number of different people posting similar things to what they want to say and don't want to be redundant. They may be concerned about being misunderstood or um, judged, for what they think. The list could go on and on and on. Saying 'I don't understand why they feel that way' or 'they shouldn't feel that way' are neither conclusive statements about those perceptions nor are they conducive to solving the problem addressed in the OP of this thread.

Granted, I am being taught this semester a way to speak to people that is supposed to make them feel validated and at ease and it is definitely bleeding into my posts on this thread. So it may not be relevant at all. I'm sure a few moons ago I would have been right in there with you telling folks they're nuts for feeling that way. But I do believe that it is essentially wrong, both in spirit and as it pertains to the purpose of this thread.

For more than a year now I have scarcely posted (or even looked at) anything outside of Entertainment and Found on the net. In the past few months I've been very guilty guilty of posting things without discussion. I didn't know there was an issue with that until now. I suppose I go by that old maxim that if you don't have anything worthwhile to say, don't say anything. I don't really know about anything apart from films and I'm usually too idle to educate myself well enough to join in a discussion about anything else - so I don't. That might change though, since I read this thread and as I have more free time now.

The Music forum could be merged with Entertainment I think, since people talk about music in Entertainment as much as other media.

MM, I think the staff gets that, it's just hard to remember all the time, especially when we're trying to dispel the myth.

I was talking to someone tonight about not being social, a few years ago we met in the rooms and she didn't really feel like she belonged there. People talked as if they knew each other, there were similar threads and stories being told. After time, she eventually did. She left that room and came back recently only to have that same feeling again since new people came and old people left. As she described it to me, I could only think of how it was so similar to this situation. It's not endemic to forums, it's endemic to human beings interacting. I likened it to coming into a conversation midstream and until you had some of the lay of the land, you generally didn't participate unless you forced yourself.

Oliver, I've been enjoying your soundtracks posts. I just don't know how to leverage that into discussions, in some ways some of the videos is a little easier since the title of the video is searchable and comes up with a relatively relevant title. I'd like to figure out how to do that with some of the image threads. I think I have a manner of doing it and it will take some work from either staff or a community member.

We're due for looking at our subforums and paring them down again. Thanks for the suggestion.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...2-30-30-a.html

something I whipped up...

Ahem. She was very clearly talking about me.

/double rimshot of irony

...

As with both the heavens and microorganisms, things expand and contract over time. TFP may have had a period of intense activity and a million subforums, but now it seems like hibernation mode is a good idea. Cut the number of subforums, combine like things, trim costs, etc.

That and having more than like four people donate to the board each month might help.

...

Seeing that I'm the dumbest rock here, I shall remain forever perplexed by the idea that it's difficult to post on an anonymous forum. I just don't get it. I may be garrulous and glib and other G words (but not a genius) but I see it as an easy rite of passage to hit the post button. Deep breath. It isn't hard.

I wasn't under the impression that TFP was about helping people who can't nut-up enough to put some text on the screen get to that point.

But what do I know? I'm so gauche it hurts.

I'm not sure how many others - new members reluctant to dip their feet or old ones that mostly stay quiet - this will apply to but I've found myself put off quite a bit in the past by how North American oriented a lot of the discussions are in General. Looking in there today brings up a prime example. I don't live in the US or follow their politics so I have no clue what the OP is about. In these sorts of threads that are US specific a line or two of preamble providing some brief general context wouldn't hurt - just for the sake of courtesy if nothing else, and so it seems less like a USA only club. If I was to start a discussion about some election or other where I am (if they even have them here) without an explainer I suspect there would (rightly) be WTFs all round. I think to automatically assume that a thread's readers are all in the USA - and already up to speed on whatever subject's being discussed - is insular, and I'd even go so far as to say that seems to go against the grain of what TFP is about.

(the election thread was just a convenient example and no offence was intended towards its author)

5 pages and no solution. I say we treat it like a Rubic's cube, peel the colored stickers off and put them where they need to be. Cheat. Let's all just keep posting and until everyone else catches on.

I went back and read -after changing the thread range, thanks Jazz- 20 pages of threads on TFpolitics. I don't recommend it. I may have a permanent twitch as a result. However it did shed some light on some of my own misconceptions. Jazz is absolutely right, comparing TFpolitics to the rest of the forum is unfair. And try as I might I could not find a single thread that even slightly resembled my 'frog' example. What I did discover is how I came about that idea and it has nothing to do with inappropriate interaction and everything to do with the relative IQ of this group. If you don't know what you're talking about going in, you will coming out. Like it or not. Basically the 'frog' was what was running through my mind each time I made a post in that forum without due diligence. I have not found any other area of the forum to be that way.

I know everyone hates the emoticons, but I have to say :thumbsup: to Cyn for the 30 in 30 idea. I'm in.

Another realization occurred in reading this thread through several times. I think Cateyes mentioned it earlier. Most forums have a specialty that binds the members. Be it hunting, tech, crafts, etc.... It's a single thing enjoyed by the membership. In rereading this thread I felt a sense of community I've not felt in another thread. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in other threads, I just haven't felt it. I think I felt it here, because we all really enjoy TFP and don't want to see it go away. We all have our own reasons and that diversity is what makes it great. That diversity is our specialty.

Logically, diversity itself should drive the numbers. Like Wally World opening a store and devastating the surrounding competitors. Why go 6 places, when you can get it all in one. Did I just call TFP the Wally World of the internet?? :orly: Anyway, having that to offer, it comes down to making everyone feel welcome. What we need is a 70 yo greater at the door with a smile and a sales flier. I think a 'welcome' email to new members could fill that position. Nothing big, just a simple "Hello, welcome to the forum. Come in, sit down, relax and join the show. Maybe drop a nOOb post to tell us something about you, and while you're at it read something about us." Easy.

This too was mentioned earlier and I've seen it on other forums as well. It, in fact, prompted me to sign up on one forum I frequent. Limit which sub forums can be viewed by non-members. The forum that got me is a Fishing forum. I could only see General discussion, classifieds and sticky threads until I signed up. I wanted catch reports and hot spots, so I signed up. Fuckin' tight lipped pricks still didn't give up any good holes, but I met a lot of cool people, learned a lot of techniques I didn't know, caught my first Steelhead after 5 years of fishing for 'em, started posting my experiences with the techniques and even hooked up with some killer fish folk in the RW. So dangling the carrot worked on me, maybe it will with others. I would have joined TFP just to read the Sexuality sub if I couldn't see it otherwise. I still haven't figured out how to get into the rumored 'post yourself' section of the forum and have almost given up on it. But I'm still here.

I'd also like to give a little stretch of the imagination and offer an opinion on the decline. Several have talked about it being a tread on the web, but I think it's more of a societal real world mood affecting the majority right now. The world and life in general is pretty fucked-up for a lot of people right now. I think everyone is feeling it in their own way, but the world climate is causing a mass withdrawal from greater social interaction. Retreating into home and family, safety.

That's how I see it anyway.

Brock

There is no solution. You can't 3 - 2 = X a forum. Admins have a vision and make decisions that they think will get them there through user participation. It's not cleaning a toilet or baking a cake, it's people talking about life and sex and pork rinds. This isn't an exact science; it's like wrestling pudding.

Word on the street is that Tilted Exhibition is a vaporware, a rumor spread by those sultry individuals who wish to generate interest in the board by means other than posting. Despite being an active member / constant annoyance for three years, I have seen no actual evidence of such a subforum.

Well, maybe you're right. But, isn't that kind of the point of this thread?

I think it's possibly wrong to assume that because someone is reticent about putting themselves out there (anonymously or not) that they are pathetic losers. Just as experience has proven that not all people who come in like gangbusters are what they seem to be.

I'll admit that it was very hard for me to start posting on forums about 10 years ago. And it wasn't easy for me to start posting when I came here. But, I did have strong convictions, some writing skills and a healthy enough ego to get past it. If one of those three elements were missing and I didn't post, it wouldn't mean that didn't have the same opinions, the same things to say. Therefore, I see nothing particularly distasteful about possibly helping some people get over that hump.

And on that note, I'll leave ya'll to the rest of this discussion. I'm not mad or anything (I promise :)), but I never intended to get involved in the first place.

Well, my argument is that how can we, as the TFP community, help people that we aren't even aware of because they just lurk around?

Are we, TFP users, supposed to chaperon new people into the community via blunt force trauma or just make ourselves more amiable?

And, yeah, nobody is a "loser." That was never an issue. To title losers is to suggest winners and nobody has picked up a cash prize yet.

My commentary is about the posts themselves more than the posters. The binary here is post or not post, not Good Poster or Bad Poster.

...

Don't be a stranger, MixedMedia.

personally, i'd hate to see the forum go.

i've been on a lot of sites berfore, but because of users not logging in, the admins just never bothered to log in anymore.

1 time there was a forum with at least 10000 members, and only 6 were still active

i'd hate to see that happen here

The solution is now and forever will be 42.

Suggested Thread Topics

I repurposed a dead forum to put some RSS feeds. Right now it's NYTimes, Consumerist, The Philosopher's Magazine, and Nerve Advice.

I'll be happy to add more if people actually use it and take a topic from it and post a new thread.

I think we're focusing on new (registered) members and giving them the opportunity and motivation to voice their opinions, Plan9. No blunt force trauma, and not necessarily more amiable-just more welcoming. I guess that might be considered the same thing, but whatever

Hmmm...but see, those of us who've been here for a few years or more, were, at one point, new. I never felt *un*welcome, but I also didn't really warm up to anyone (or anyone to me) until I'd been here for a bit. There were discussions back then with just as many inside jokes as there are now, and I'd be puzzled, then move on.

Maybe this comes off as harsh, but we've all paid our dues in the newbie department. I don't think we really need to hold anyone's hand.

I don't disagree necessarily cinna -- I mean, my early days are a bit hazy now, but I don't remember any particular special treatment. It takes time to get the swing of a community.

But at the same time, it's getting to the point where it can't really be ignored anymore. I used to think that we'd hit equilibrium, that our community was just sort of destined to be a smaller one. At this point though I'm starting to wonder if that truly is the case. Old names and faces have moved on, and we're not getting enough new blood to replace them. If we can't figure out a way to attract new folks here and keep them here, the community is going to eventually die. Whether it burns out or fades away is almost irrelevant.

As an aside, can we maybe move this into the playground? I'm not sure a thread like this is going to give the best impression to the new users we're attracting now.

I agree on the move. I've actually considered this a couple times before, but forgotten to suggest it.

You're not alone. I've considered it to. And I've got the power to actually do it. However, there are several new folks that participated, and I don't think that it's fiar to shut them completely out at this point. This version of this discussion has been more....civil than we usually see, so it's not a complete embarrassment like some others have been.

Hi

It was an email from this forum which got me over here a couple of days ago. I had happened on this forum six months ago and had seen 'Evolution' and 'Philosophy' some months ago and joined. Various other things, eg computer breaking, interrupted my trains of thought.

Last couple of days, I have been sampling threads and posts. This evening, I read this thread in detail.

I suppose it Could shake the confidence of some potential members, however, IMO this depends on the extent to which people prefer to see 'no problems' or to see 'quality in handling problems.' I'm of the second variety.

I'll say a few 'hello' things in the newcomers' section when I've had a bit of sleep.

All the best

Z

Thanks for your input, Zenda. I hope most of us agree that this issue is being handled well, and I look forward to seeing you around the forum =)