Don't raise your child in Texas.

[Halx]

Texas is only 6000 years old! | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

During the Texas State Board of Education hearings on science standards for Texas schoolchildren, BoE member and staunch creationist Barbara Cargill decided that the age of the Universe was up for vote. Oddly enough, I had some issue with that. You may vote on issues all you want, and you can even vote on morality if you’d like, but scientific reality is not a matter of opinion and cares not for the majority vote.

Her amendment passed.

This isn't the first raping of standard intelligence that Texas has performed. As it is now, they teach creationism with the same expression on their face as they do evolution. All I can think of is the children who will grow up learning this shit.

This reminds me of a little article I read online about one student's research into the question of, "Why didn't the Apollo astronauts float off the moon?" The answers were astounding. Of course, one popular answer was, "heavy boots." Right.

Ahh.. here it is: Heavy Boots

Parents, I hope this raises your awareness of how important it is to send your kid to a good school. Avoid Texas at all costs.

[Baraka_Guru]

Astounding! This is surreal.

I like this little related bit:

Speaking last February on campus, Christopher Hitchens said teaching intelligent design in biology classes would be equivalent to teaching astrology in astronomy classes or alchemy in chemistry courses. Creationists do not truly desire an even application of the “equal time” doctrine because it would force churches to teach the works of Voltaire, Benedict de Spinoza and Thomas Paine on Sunday mornings, Hitchens said.

The Daily Evergreen Online - Opinion - Columns

There needs to be a line drawn between education and morality stories/doctrine. Separate church and state much lately?

[Reese]

Something always bothered me about that Heavy Boots story. He protested that the pen would fall, only slower. This too is incorrect. You can youtube "Apollo 15 hammer and Feather" if you want to see the proof that they both fall at the same time because there's no resistance, only gravity.

I agree with you though. If you want your kids to learn creationism, take them to church. Take them to Sunday school, put them in a private christian school.

[Willravel]

The interesting part of this story is that the atheist and anti-religious movements in Texas are growing by leaps and bounds. I'm completely convinced there's going to eventually be a substantial black lash against those that warp and break science because of their own superstitions. And it's coming sooner and sooner every time something stupid like this happens.

On that day, I'll pour myself a glass of scotch and salute Carl Sagan.

[Wrexify]

If you have time and want to get angry, I'd recommend watching the Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode about creationism.

Same kind of arguments going back and forth... when the creationists were presented with scientific evidence, they responded by asking "How can you prove that your scientific methods are sound? How do we know the results weren't skewed by anti-creationist groups?"

You can't possibly "win" this argument. Creationists want all children to be taught what they believe and they will continue to pull stunts like this in order to reach their goal. I feel sorry for those children... but I suppose they'll be living in ignorant bliss.

[GM2]

Come now, I was educated through master's degree in Texas and none of my teachers ever gave lip service to creationism. My biology teacher in high school is one of the best I ever had, even through college.

The politicians don't have anywhere near enough power to force good teachers to teach fiction as fact. They can pass all the amendments they want, but a good teacher will always teach proven science instead of mysticism.

In Texas, there are good schools and bad schools, just like anywhere else. Don't lump all Texans in with our dumbest politicians; you might as well say anyone from Illinois will take a bribe.

Originally Posted by Halx

Texas is only 6000 years old! | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine



Her amendment passed.

This isn't the first raping of standard intelligence that Texas has performed. As it is now, they teach creationism with the same expression on their face as they do evolution. All I can think of is the children who will grow up learning this shit.

This reminds me of a little article I read online about one student's research into the question of, "Why didn't the Apollo astronauts float off the moon?" The answers were astounding. Of course, one popular answer was, "heavy boots." Right.

Ahh.. here it is: Heavy Boots

Parents, I hope this raises your awareness of how important it is to send your kid to a good school. Avoid Texas at all costs.

[Deltona Couple]

While I agree somewhat in some of the responses here, I must disagree with the OP as far as the education standards in Texas. Both my daughters are receiving an EXCELLENT education here in the Houston area, where they attend the highest rated high school in the state. They receive good marks, pay attention in class, and seem much more excited about the challenges they receive in school. My oldest one is signing up for the National Guard, and will be receiving a full ROTC scholarship at UT in Austin, and my youngest one is a Sophomore in HS, and is a member of the JROTC in her school. She is planning on joining the Marines after she graduates from Texas A&M. You can't group the entirety of a state's schools based on a few nut jobs out there. The teachers are the ones who do all the work, and as long as my kids show that they are learning, then I plan on keeping them there.

[Seaver]

Thanks GM and Deltona. I went to school all over the US and Canada (Navy Brat), and to be blunt my best education was found in Texas. My biology teacher spent 10min on creationism, 10 min on snail on log theory, and then 10 weeks on evolution. Snail on Log theory was that where ever you see a snail on a log, throw it in a closet for 3 weeks and it magically turns into mushrooms. This gives you a hint on how much credit creationism was given.

[Willravel]

Don't you dare question the mighty Snail. Don't you fucking dare.

[Charlatan]

I don't doubt that there are many great teachers in Texas and I don't doubt that there are many kids getting an excellent education.

I just think this sort of legislation is complete and utter garbage. I am with Hitchens on this... if the Creationists want equal time, then let's start demanding equal time for Voltaire, Benedict de Spinoza, Thomas Paine and Charles Darwin at the pulpit.

Creationism is religion and it has a place, and that place is church.

[Anormalguy]

Texas isn't the only state with idiot politicians who suck-up to the bible thumpers.

[PredeconInferno]

I find this thread pretty interesting. I think every state has their moments with the education system. In fact, in Indiana there was a bill passed that said Pi was exactly 3. Texas actually has a very good education system on the relative scale of the country. The answer is due to oil money - they're pretty well funded. In fact, Texas actually has one of the only Schools of Evolutionary Psychology - which is very good at that.

I'm a scientist so I know how you feel about the creationism/evolution argument. However, if the teachers actually taught both sides of the argument with a blank face - it would be fantastic. You're giving the children the information they to make that decision for themselves without injecting your own opinion. To change gears a little bit, I've done fairly extensive research into the creationism/evolution issue in the education system. So far, I haven't found any evidence that says people are teaching creationism in school. I went to a catholic school and my teacher basically said creationism was garbage. The fact of the matter is creationism doesn't fit nearly any of the scientific facts we know about the origins of the universe. Evolution doesn't explain everything about the origin of the universe and has some key details missing.

In the end, it doesn't matter either way. An amendment passing like this won't affect the education system in the slightest. This is one isolated example of crap like this happening. The bill in Indiana passing did nothing because every math/science teacher knows that Pi is a non-terminating number. The heavy boots example has no affect on the rest of the education system either. These are all isolated incidents that make next to no difference when you apply abstract reasoning. The problem is in the details, and I agree that it's definitely a problem. But in the end, what can we do about it?

[Aladdin Sane]

Texas is awful. Yeah, no doubt about it. Schools are full of religious nuts. Another good reason to go to California, Nevada, or Arizona when times get tough in your own state. Please spread the word! Texas will distroy yer chilrens inteligense! DON'T MOVE TO TEXAS!!!

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by cybermike

Something always bothered me about that Heavy Boots story. He protested that the pen would fall, only slower. This too is incorrect. You can youtube "Apollo 15 hammer and Feather" if you want to see the proof that they both fall at the same time because there's no resistance, only gravity.

No, it would fall slower than it would fall on the earth. The question doesn't ask whether it would fall faster than a feather or slower than a brick. Since it's vacuum, they'd all fall at the same rate--but it would be slower than they'd fall on Earth.

Gravity is a direct function of mass. The earth "pulls" at 9.81m/s^2, which is how fast an object accelerates toward the earth. On the moon, the acceleration of gravity is 1.6m/s^2, or 1/6 that of the earth. So the pen would take six times as long to fall the same distance as it would on the earth.

...Also, boo on Texas. They think barbecue is beef, of all things.

[Skitto]

They teach evolution with the same face as they do creationism? What, they have the same stupid, orgasmic admiration as the people who watch Cirque Du Soleil.

[Seaver]

HAHAHA I just read the article. Barbara Cargill... I met that woman when I worked as an intern in the Texas Congress. This woman is from one of the worst bible-thumping regions in the state. My honest interpretation of her is that she'll say whatever it takes to get elected and even made plans to run for Federal Senate. The truth is even the most conservative politicians in the state can't stand her, matter of fact I met her when the Congressman I was working for asked me to get her to leave his lunch thrown for his birthday.

Anyways don't get your panties in a bunch. The State has mandated some time ago that Evolution must be taught as a theory (as it should) and that opposing theories should be taught, including creationism. Teach them as theories and let the intelligence of the kids rule. The more you think creationism does not stand up to evolution the more you should welcome the free flow of support.

...Also, boo on Texas. They think barbecue is beef, of all things.

I'll take my beef ribs over pork anyday. I bet you're the kind of guy who invites people to a BBQ, then has hot dogs and burgers on a grill.

[tisonlyi]

Seaver, I don't think you are, but to be clear... You aren't mixing up Scientific Theory with Scientific Hypothesis, are you?

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Seaver

I'll take my beef ribs over pork anyday. I bet you're the kind of guy who invites people to a BBQ, then has hot dogs and burgers on a grill.

Oh, come down HERE and say that, my friend. I'll stuff you full of pulled pork in a vinegar sauce, with hush puppies and sweet tea on the side.

[Seaver]

Vinegar.... right.

I'll match your bitter vinegar sauce with my beer marinade, dry rub, or whiskey base any day.

Though honestly that'd make a good cook-off. Vinegar pulled pork vs. Smoked dry-rub brisket.

[uncle phil]

Originally Posted by Seaver

I'll take my beef ribs over pork anyday. I bet you're the kind of guy who invites people to a BBQ, then has hot dogs and burgers on a grill.

Originally Posted by ratbastid

...Also, boo on Texas. They think barbecue is beef, of all things.

shoot, i've had both pork and beef and they're both excellent...

c'mon, guys, don't start a "rib" war...

[Giant Hamburger]

Hail Citizens!

Please leave Texas in an orderly fashion using only the east and west exits.
Do not look back or in accordance to your beliefs, you will be turned to pillars of salt.
All moist brisket must remain.

Don't forget to take the children.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Giant Hamburger

...you will be turned to pillars of salt.

*dons cowboy hat*

Batter tat than pilluhs uh mustard, I reckun! Dayum liberals... they're too gud for catsup.

[Iliftrocks]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Oh, come down HERE and say that, my friend. I'll stuff you full of pulled pork in a vinegar sauce, with hush puppies and sweet tea on the side.

East Coast North Carolina Barbeque BABY!!!!!

By the way, even us Nawf Cackalacky hicks like to have challenge barbeques where all kinds of people can cook us the "wrong" kind of barbeque. We'll even enjoy it, but honestly it ain't as good as our'n..... ( Come on prove me wrong ) (please)

Just don't try to foist that chilli stuff without beans, yeeesh that's for hotdogs

BTW, boo Texas politics, they're about as bad as our'n

[rmarshall]

Well, Canada has their creationists too. He got a little upset when questioned about it.

" Canada's science minister, the man at the centre of the controversy over federal funding cuts to researchers, won't say if he believes in evolution.
"I'm not going to answer that question. I am a Christian, and I don't think anybody asking a question about my religion is appropriate," Gary Goodyear, the federal Minister of State for Science and Technology, said in an interview with The Globe and Mail.

A funding crunch, exacerbated by cuts in the January budget, has left many senior researchers across the county scrambling to find the money to continue their experiments.

Some have expressed concern that Mr. Goodyear, a chiropractor from Cambridge, Ont., is suspicious of science, perhaps because he is a creationist...

“It is the same as asking the gentleman, ‘Do you believe the world is flat?' and he doesn't answer on religious grounds,” said Dr. Alters. “Or gravity, or plate tectonics, or that the Earth goes around the sun.”

globeandmail.com: National

[Reese]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

No, it would fall slower than it would fall on the earth. The question doesn't ask whether it would fall faster than a feather or slower than a brick. Since it's vacuum, they'd all fall at the same rate--but it would be slower than they'd fall on Earth.

Weird, my physics knowledge trumps my reading ability. I thought for sure he was comparing the falling speed of the pen to the fall speed the Apollo astronauts' "heavy boots" with that statement. A feather would still fall slower on earth than on the moon though :P


Back on topic. Science and Religion do NOT mix. When God is always the answer, there's nothing to teach. Until God comes down from Heaven and tells me how he created it 6k years ago and just made it look 4.5 billion years old I'm going to go with the easier explanation and assume it really is 4.5 billions years old.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Iliftrocks

Just don't try to foist that chilli stuff without beans, yeeesh that's for hotdogs

Yeah. And burgers, but only with cole slaw.

This thread is making me hungry. Which probably isn't what Hal intended.

[Emotion]

there are stupid people everywhere.

[Aladdin Sane]

Originally Posted by Giant Hamburger

Hail Citizens!

Please leave Texas in an orderly fashion using only the east and west exits.
Do not look back or in accordance to your beliefs, you will be turned to pillars of salt.
All moist brisket must remain.

Don't forget to take the children.

I've often thought we're building a wall on the wrong border. Personally, I'd prefer to move it from the Rio Grande to the Red River. Better yet, extend it all the way around. Of course spreading the word about how awful it is here would be the cheaper route.

[GM2]

This sort of degenerated into something else, but for the record let me state two things:

1. Gravitational acceleration is directly proportional to the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between two objects; therefore, the astronauts didn't float off the moon because the moon exerted a gravitational acceleration greater than that of any other object because of its proximity. It is also worth noting that the astronauts exerted an equal but opposite force on the moon that the moon exerted on them, but due to the moon's much greater mass, the effect upon it was negligible.

2. I'm from Texas and I make some pretty good pork ribs, but I won't claim Texas has the best bbq. I don't know who does but we probably don't. Steaks, on the other hand...

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by GM2

This sort of degenerated into something else

My fault. Mention barbecue, and it's all over.

[dksuddeth]

Originally Posted by Iliftrocks

East Coast North Carolina Barbeque BABY!!!!!

By the way, even us Nawf Cackalacky hicks like to have challenge barbeques where all kinds of people can cook us the "wrong" kind of barbeque. We'll even enjoy it, but honestly it ain't as good as our'n..... ( Come on prove me wrong ) (please)

Just don't try to foist that chilli stuff without beans, yeeesh that's for hotdogs

man, now you've done it. I so miss the annual pig roasts my unit had when I was stationed there.

[tricks]

Originally Posted by cybermike

Weird, my physics knowledge trumps my reading ability. I thought for sure he was comparing the falling speed of the pen to the fall speed the Apollo astronauts' "heavy boots" with that statement. A feather would still fall slower on earth than on the moon though :P

The feather would still fall slower on the Moon. 1/6th the gravity of Earth. A feather seems to fall slower than other objects on Earth due to the air slowing it down.

[Fire]

some prestigious universities need to start refusing to accept diplomas from texas, and BTW kansas. if they still have not fixed their wacky creationist program, high schools... that would either stop that shit quick or start some kind of border war- either way, bring it on and remember the popcorn.... BTW, why does no other religious group scream about their beliefs not being promoted.... where are the outraged hindu, Native americans, etc.... oh, right, pursuing advanced degrees instead of bitching.....