Hyacinthe

Post #34 mentions him as an accomplice, he wasn't an accomplice exactly in the strictest sense of the word like the woman he was a "criminal"- he was actually charged as he was outside drinking juice as well. That's why each of them is paying something like $280 rather then the $555 each.

So no only did he allow the woman to purchase the juice without saying anything he was outside WITH her ALSO drinking when he knew he shouldn't be.

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dlish

i thought it was about time i set the record straight.

im still dumbfounded that as smart and intellectual this forum is, that there is still people here who wont raise a finger to find out the facts before they make silly statements.

did anyone bother reading any other article other than the link posted? i think not. the link was a russian website, obviously in defence of the russian girl in question.

given that i live in the UAE, i think im in a better position to tell you what this whole thing is about and to explain the scenario and the ramaan environment so to speak. im here to call a spade a spade. im not here to defend any side, just giving my views on this thing.

so lets look at the facts in question shall we?


2 people get arrested for drinking juice in public during ramadan in daylight hours. they were charged and fined.

is that all we know? did anyone bother do any reading?? were they together? were they seperate cases? the article doesnt really say.

so lets get to it.

FACTS

1) there are laws in place that forbid everyone from eating and drinking in public

2) these laws are everywhere. evento the extent that they are advertised in the newspaper, in the local buildings, as part of the radio stations broadcasts in arabic, english and hindi.

3) there are designated areas in parts of shopping centres where non fasting members of the community are allowed to eat and drink. this usually comprises of restaurants that put curtains on their windows to accomodate for this part of the community.

4) the laws are in place not just in public, but also in the workplace. you cant eat at your desk in front of fasting members, but you are allowed to eat in the lunchroom etc away from fasting members of the community.

5) the laws are set as a sign of respect for the fasting members of the community.

6) the vast majority of the population is non muslim. only 10% of the population is local emirati. the remainder come from mainly asia, europe, UK, mid east and africa.

7) non fasting members of the muslim community (pregnant women, children, those that are unable to fast for health reasons etc) do not have to fast, but still must abide by the laws, so it is not just a non muslim issue.

do i think it tough? hell yeah. do i have sympathy for those two that got arrested? no not really. why? lets see the facts of the story then


1) the two people in question were at a service station
2) two people - a male and female are arrested for drinking in public
3) they are seen by some local emirati who was offended by them drinking and called the police.
4) the police arrested the two and charged them.
5) the two were the first case out of almost 5 million people. surely these guys arent the sole people that have eaten in daylight hours?
6) as mentioned earlier the male that got arrested was lebanese. even if he wasnt muslim, he would have known that he was not allowed to eat or drink in public. she being with him would have been aware of this also.
7)the 'seller or facilitator' doesnt get punished. he sold them both a juice bottle, why is it his fault that he be punished for selling juice? it was their decision to drink it.

for those saying this is a muslim country and it doesnt accomodate for non muslims, i dare say you have yet to set foot here. the only time you hear things like this is when the western media picks things up and makes a big issue out of what is a flagrant flaunting of the laws. ie- when sunbathers bathe topless, or people have sex on the beach, or when people get busted for bringing drugs into the country. i dont see why people jump on the bandwagon when the laws are well known by everyone living here.

so ok - the rules are very tough. granted. i agree, but there are things in place to accomodate the non muslim population.

there is an extremely large indian population here..about half the population in fact. they dont have these problems and issues. why? because they are aware of the rules, cultural restrictions and taboos. westerners on the other hand have less regard for the cultural sensitivities and a lot are ignorant of the cultural and religious influence on society.

these laws are not overbearing. nor are they unreasonable. i just wish there was a bot more common sense and understanding before people decide to make a judgement.

when in rome, do as the romans.

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Daval

Excellent post. You have certainly opened my eyes to the true facts and I sincerely thank you for doing that.

It seems that I shouldn't be jumping to conclusions so readily....

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highthief

We have been waiting for you to chime in with your local knowledge!

I think point 5 above is key - it would be pretty horrible to be fasting and have to watch someone else chowing down on a Big Mac in front of you.

As indicated, you can go indoors and eat in private or in designated areas.

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Cynthetiq

an awesome reality check! thanks for that

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

MSD

I guess I'm just an asshole if after the reality check I haven't changed my mind.

Poppinjay

I equate it to the idea of wearing a hat in a protestant church in America. We don't have laws about it, but everybody around you would stare at you and whisper. A woman on the way out may utter, "disgraceful". Her name is Ella.

Thanks Dlish for your info. I was holding comments until you or Abaya offered some cultural context.

Life was easier when Russians weren't allowed to travel.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

jorgelito

Damn you Dlsih, why did it take you so long to respond? We could have used your post awhile ago. Anyways, thanks for your post and perspective.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 09 : 24 : 14-----
No, you're not (at least not with regards to this thread). I think you are perfectly normal and your opinion is perfectly fine.

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to the one that endures to the end."

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biznatch

I agree with the "their country, their laws" POV. I don't have anything significant to add to this thread.

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dlish

thanks guys. i expected to come back to tussle, i didn expect almost everyone to agree with me!

daval - fair play. takes a lot to do what you did. respect.

at least everyones 'post reality check' responses taught me not to judge your rebuttals, so i can walk away having learnt something too.

having said that, this is my experience in the UAE and the UAE only, and this may not be the case in other parts of the muslim world. i am yet to visit another muslim country in Ramadan, so other peoples experiences may differ. maybe abaya or ktsp can give us an insight into Lebanon perhaps?

and sorry it took me so long to post. i did see the thread when i got up in the morning but i was running late so i couldnt respond. i also cant respond at work because im having trouble logging in to TFP from there, so i responded as soon as i got home. i wasnt waiting for you guys to swim in your own stew.

MSD, i dont think you're as asshole if you dont agree. at least you can come away from this knowing that there are considerations for non fasting members of the UAE, and that the UAE are not the stringent tossballs other neighbouring countries may be. just do me a favour and let me know when that meteor is coming!

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Psycho Dad

I'm saving my outrage. I don't think 280 buck each is as hard to swallow as a life prison term, beheading, caning or some of the other punishments handed out to travelers who ignore or fail to research local laws and customs while abroad. Many countries have strict or what we may consider asinine laws, not just Muslim countries.

Dorothy should have known she was leaving Kansas.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

abaya

Unfortunately, I have not been to Lebanon during Ramadan... but ktsp might have some more insight for us on that one. I do know that there are 18 different religious groups in Lebanon, so it would probably be quite difficult to implement laws such as these. But let's see what my husband has to say.

Excellent post btw, dlish. Makes me wonder why people jump to conclusions so easily about an area of the world they know so little about...

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

because we like to project our values onto everyone else and be righteously indignant! does there happen to be a socialogical word for this type of behavior?

Funny because it does happen domestically and locally just on a smaller scale.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Aha! True. I wouldn't know, because I *never* indulge in that kind of behavior... Riiight. Being an asshole? At least, that's what I call myself when I do it. A more appropriate term would probably be ethnocentrism.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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MSD

I try to be tolerant, but I get indignant as hell over legislating morality and passing laws that don't fix problems. I think the religious law thing is mostly a knee jerk reaction to my religious upbringing, and it doesn't help I find religious practices like fasting ridiculous. At least in this case they aren't executing people for drinking or having sex.

Cynthetiq

rest assured it's endemic to the human population...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jorgelito

This is true, thanks for posting this. People far too often make generalizations about Americans or conservatives or Christians without regards to facts. Ditto Asia and Asians.

__________________
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to the one that endures to the end."

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Frosstbyte

I guess I've already had my thoughts from this thread quoted in the Hall of Fame, but for me this isn't a question of jumping to conclusions about a place. I would think a law like this was dumb anywhere for any reason. I am perfectly fine with fasting being a part of religious observance-I was raised Jewish, I know a bit about fasting on a certain day of the year. As with basically everything in life, I'm happy for people to do what they want, so long as they're not hurting anyone else.

I know lots of people who fast while other people are eating around them. I've fasted while people have eaten around me. Does it make it harder to fast? Sure it does. But you don't fast because it's supposed to be easy or pleasant. You fast to deny yourself a worldly pleasure and to focus your thoughts to your faith. I don't think you "respect" those who are fasting by telling everyone else that they can't eat in public or that they can only eat in designated areas. People who fast are choosing to do so, and if they feel uncomfortable around people who are eating, then I think they should choose to remove themselves, as opposed to forcing everyone else to accommodate their needs.

dlish

so should i be removing myself from meetings if someone decides to smoke drink or eat in front of me? should i be removing myself from the office at lunch time? should i change my course so that i dont walk past the food court? these designated areas are actually normal restaurants with curtains, and not some back of house room.

At the end of the day, yes people who fast do have a choice whether to fast or not, but its also a choice for visitors to be in the country at that time.

if i were in India, id respect my hosts by not eating beef in their presence the same way id respect my hosts during ramadan by not eating in their presence.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Frosstbyte

I'm not saying you should HAVE to, but saying that if it bothers YOU, the person choosing to fast, so much that you cannot tolerate being around someone who is eating, then you should be the one who moves, as opposed to forcing everyone else to accommodate your need. The difference is my way allows for people to choose to be very polite and not eat around those fasting, it allows people to not care who is fasting or not fasting and eat where they want, it allows for people who fast to choose to be around people who are fasting and it allows people who fast to choose to be around people who are eating.

My problem is with the government regulating everyone's behavior to appease a certain group's needs which are related solely to their religious interests. People are rude all the time, everywhere. And unless it's particularly egregious (or you live in Singapore), it's not a crime. I don't think eating in front of people who are fasting rises to the level that it ought to require a law punishing you (fairly severely) for doing so.

Now, a business (in your example) prohibiting employees from eating in public is an entirely different story, and I would be perfectly fine with allowing that rule. The key for me is that it is a crime.

Jozrael

The problem arises when you're in a country with the ruling class being the fasters . I'm not quite sure of the percentage of the population in Dubai which fasts, but its probably considerably higher than where we live.

jewels

If it bothers YOU, the person choosing to eat/drink, and it bothers you so much that you cannot tolerate being around people that aren't eating, you should move as opposed to forcing everyone else to accomodate your need. N'est-ce pas?

I don't necessarily agree with the law, but it's not my culture or country. I know if I'm going to visit a foreign land and enjoy and learn their culture, I have to learn, respect and maybe even try to understand their rules. We Americans are so self-absorbed that we have this need to force our culture, politics and thinking on everyone else. And we think national partisanship is a bitch?

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Jozrael

@Jewels: Negative rights and positive rights are very separate things, though they are both rights. So it's not a total equality there.

In this situation, though, I understand what you're saying.

Peaches

Exactly right Jewels. It's not about whether we agree or disagree with this, or any law in another country. It's about respecting the laws of the country you're visiting. We expect visitors here to respect our laws, and we should do no less when we are a guest in another country.

For example. I am a smoker, you find smoking offensive and do not allow it in your home. I come to your home to visit. Does my right to smoke trump your right to control actions in your home (make your laws)? Should you have to step outside your home so as not to be offended by my smoking? No, you shouldn't. When I come to your home as a guest I respect your rules. If I can't I don't visit. It's that simple.

Frosstbyte

Read this. Then read mine again. They are not even remotely similar, because I never claimed to care if I were around people who were eating or fasting, which is the whole point.

dlish

for me personally, i have no issues with people eating or drinking in front of me. whether in the office or outside of it.

coming from australia and growing up there, it was a normal part of life that when ramadan came along, there was no difference in how it was observed. all my friends ate and drank in front of me at school. no muslim had qualms with it. so much so that it really does not bother me even till now whether someone eats or drinks in front of me. i respected the australian culture. i followed the australian way, i had never had any problems with it. i grew up in a fairly conservative lebanese muslim household, but we respected the way australia worked.

ive been in the UAE for a year and a half now. as much as i enjoy my life here, theres a lot of things that i dont like and dissapprove of. a LOT. but at the end of the day i have a choice as to whetehr i want to be here or not.

at this point in time, i want to be here more than i dont, and i choose to want to be here. there are many laws that i find racist sexist and downright wrong. am i going to fight it? no. its not my country and they can run it as they please. the moment i stop enjoying living here, ill be gone in a flash.

for the time being, its quite easy living a western lifestyle here, similar and in many ways MORE western than many parts of Sydney.

what i do have a problem with though, is that as an australian muslim, i conformed to the way australia expected me to conform. i paid my taxes, i was never on welfare, i studied hard, integrated into society, even though some of those norms were alien to the way my parents grew up. our family respected australia and its customs and are indebted to it.

what i do have a problem with though is that this same frame of mind is ok for the goose but not ok for the gander.

why is it expected that easterners conform to 'your' way of life, but its not ok for a westerner to conform to an easterners way of life?

why do you ask that a whole nation change its laws that are intertwined into their religious practices to abolish their way.

why is it that the feeling of self righteousness is so ingrained into western thought that anything they deem is right obviously is?

then you ask..why do they hate us?...

its not because of your freedoms.

what im finding more and more is that the westerners will pick and choose what they want from this place, and leave everything they are not interested in. its ok to take their money, but its not ok to show some respect. nobody has a problem with people coming here to make a living, as long as theres mutual respect. for the most part this the case.

this isnt meant to be a political discussion, nor do i intend on makng it one. im just to show that the level of respect is not balanced.

i too have problems with the mentality of the government and how it runs a lot of its affairs. yes i do think that making this a crime is an overkill, but i barely think that a 260 dollar fine is a severe punishment for breaking the law.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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Charlatan

You make a very good point here. I see this sort of attitude in various degree here as well. The sense of entitlement can be highly annoying.

I think if you are going to go and live in another country and another culture, you should make a concerted effort to follow their rules (regardless of how ridiculous you may think they are) and sample their culture (to the extent that you can).

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jewels

It should have read "if it bothered you", instead of "if it bothers you". Semantics and you miss the point. I was trying to get you to see it from the other side.

How about this scenario -- your house, guest comes in (uninvited, by the way) and wants to (insert verb here) in your house, but it makes your family sick, grosses you out or is against your religion/beliefs and/or you think it's cruel. What then?
-----Added 27/9/2008 at 07 : 08 : 15-----
Thanks, peaches. Much better example then mine.

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Ayashe

I agree that you should become aware of the cultural norms and laws of the area you are visiting before you visit and follow them to the best of your ability. What they did was against the law, and they will be responsible for paying their fines for their lawbreaking which is the right thing to do. In fact by reading on it, it sounds as though they got off rather easily according to the law. That does not mean that I agree with the law however. That only means that when or if I visit, I am smart enough to follow basic rules whether I find them idiotic, humorous or even completely sensible. With that said, I am fairly certain that most most of us here would follow whatever applicable rules of whatever country they happened to be visiting.

It may be easy to pass judgment on "westerners" in making a broad statement that they have less regard for cultural sensitivities and are ignorant on cultural and religious influences on society. Mind you many of these westerners come from secular societies where religion is displaced as much as possible from the government and education. Mind you that the reasons for the displacement of religious influence from law, government and public education is to attempt to prevent one society over another from being discriminated against. Never mind that the whole idea of having actual laws based off of religion being incredibly foreign if not ridiculous to a secular culture. I am not saying that westerners are "doin' it right." What I am saying is that if you are asking for westerners to agree with religious based laws, you are asking for a great deal.

I agree completely that when I am in another country I am required to follow their rules and obligated to do some research to be sure I do. I agree that I would follow the rules and be respectful to the local cultural norms of whatever country I visit. I disagree that it would make me ignorant or insensitive because I personally disagree with religion being allowed in government. I am thinking that most of us who are commenting negatively towards the law would have no trouble following it, but have difficulty with the fact that religion is connected to the law in the way that it is.

Willravel

When I do eventually go to the UAE, if I happen to be there during Ramadan, I'll fast during the day, too. Why visit a place and not delve into the culture? I've fasted before, and I've enjoyed dinner with Muslim friends in the evening during Ramadan. There's nothing better than a big delicious meal after a day of fasting and reflecting.

It's a shame that the woman didn't do her homework before visiting Dubai, but all she had to do was pay a few hundred bucks. She's very, very fortunate. Is the law unreasonable? Not any more unreasonable than blue laws in the US. Besides, the UAE doesn't have established church/state separation, so actually blue laws are much worse because they're hypocritical.

telekinetic

For people still not getting it: Should I be allowed to whip my dick out and start masturbating while walking down Main Street USA? Is this offensive to the general sensibilities of our country? It doesn't hurt anyone, and what if I come from a country where that's perfectly legal and normal...shouldn't you accomodate me?

A less extreme example would be a women deciding she was hot, and not wanting to wear a shirt. It's a perfectly practical request...why should she have to wear a shirt just because we have decided it's illegal not to? Many countries do not consider a topless woman rude, and there are probably people in the country that it doesn't bother, so why would she get arrested? What if she didn't know you weren't allowed to walk down the street topless?

Willravel

I can't really say I'm against your second example, twisted.

telekinetic

And I'm sure there are many people in the UAE who aren't against people eating in public. The fact remains that it is illegal, you will get arrested and fined, and people visiting the country should know better.

Frosstbyte

Look, when I travel to foreign countries and I have, I follow their local laws and customs. I attire myself properly, and avoid cultural faux pas (illegal or just embarrassing). I don't know why I'm being painted as a picture of an obnoxious, entitled American tourist who runs all over the world, waving money around, mocking the people living there and not caring about local customs.

I'm expressing the opinion that more freedom is better, period. If you want to walk around naked, that's just fine with me. I live in the Bay Area. I don't have to go very far to see guys walking around with their dicks hanging out of their pants in front of City Hall and women without shirts on right beside them. I suppose that opinion conflicts with basically all current government systems, but so be it. I think "being offended" by what people happen to be themselves doing is a lousy reason to make something a crime, and that what is offensive is so different between individuals that trying to have a societal norm is all but meaningless.

If someone were to walk up to you and flash you with the intent of offending or scandalizing you, that's very different than a person being comfortable being naked. As it is different to happen to be eating in public versus walking up to a person and rubbing his nose in the fact that he's fasting.

This isn't an east versus west I hate Arabs or Muslims tirade. I think it's nonsense for the government to be micromanaging life that way. I think it's up for individuals, businesses, families, clubs, etc. to make lifestyle choices like that. I'm happy for people to carry on their personal lives however they want. I think it's poor government to have those individual choices be a norm. I think there's a good reason for there to be a separation of church and state, and if that automatically makes me insensitive to the east, I guess I'll just have to accept that label.