Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Chatter > General Discussion


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-25-2008, 06:53 PM   #1 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Passing random urine tests to be eligible for welfare

I got an email that stated the following:

Quote:
Like a lot of folks in this state, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test with which I have no problem. What I do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who don't have to pass a urine test. Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them? Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their RUMP, doing drugs, while I work. Can you imagine how much money the state would save if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check?
I don't think anyone should be drug tested ever. How about that?

I think its pretty shitty to assume that if a few people abuse the welfare system then all of them do same as I think its f'd up to drug test someone before you hire them. Whatever happened to treating adults as adults and innocent until proven guilty?
UKking is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
More Than You Expect
 
Manic_Skafe's Avatar
 
Location: Queens
I can't express enough how tired I am of seeing that email. It's been circulated for years now and every six months or so some new genius at my job forwards it to everyone and posts it everywhere.

I'm against drug testing those on welfare simply because drug tests are expensive and they don't prove anything significant. And while our gov't has come up with some creative ways to waste tax money - I'd rather not give them another excuse.

But what pisses me off the most about this entire issue is every time I go into the gas station a few blocks from my job that's located next to a homeless shelter and I catch the cashiers (illegally) cashing out people on their gov't checks as if they bought groceries and such only to sell them beer, sodas and other junk foods.

I'd report the gas station but I doubt how significant an impact it'd make on our welfare system which is such a dire need of reform.
__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian
Manic_Skafe is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Fotzlid's Avatar
 
Location: Greater Boston area
its in need of reform because people dont report abuses of the system.
Fotzlid is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
The obviously solution is not giving away others peoples money to buy votes via welfare.

Then they can do all the drugs they want.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
More Than You Expect
 
Manic_Skafe's Avatar
 
Location: Queens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotzlid
its in need of reform because people dont report abuses of the system.
Wrong. You can tighten the reins to your liking but that'll only accomplish getting them off welfare and into jail.

These people need to be re-educated.
__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian
Manic_Skafe is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the drugs rather than take away the money?

Fight poverty, don't exacerbate it.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 07:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Fotzlid's Avatar
 
Location: Greater Boston area
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe
Wrong. You can tighten the reins to your liking but that'll only accomplish getting them off welfare and into jail.

These people need to be re-educated.
wrong. if you tighten the reigns, then the gas station people go to jail. they are the ones skirting the law. the people with the checks are just taking advantage of the lack of accountability.
Fotzlid is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
More Than You Expect
 
Manic_Skafe's Avatar
 
Location: Queens
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotzlid
wrong. if you tighten the reigns, then the gas station people go to jail. they are the ones skirting the law. the people with the checks are just taking advantage of the lack of accountability.
(Wrong.) The stores are supposed to be investigated and with the thousands of stores in Queens alone that participate in the gov't aid programs - that probably won't even happen. And even if it does and the store is caught in the act, at most they'll be fined and if they are shut down then those in need of support will just illegally cash their checks elsewhere.

Cracking down on the stores and revoking their eligibility to the program won't positively effect them at all. It won't teach them that their children need stable parents and wholesome foods much more than they need to party and do drugs.

This system works as long as we look only to treat symptoms and not to treat their root causes. As I said before, these people need to be re-educated.
__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian
Manic_Skafe is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
ngdawg's Avatar
 
Location: on the back, bitch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe
I can't express enough how tired I am of seeing that email. It's been circulated for years now and every six months or so some new genius at my job forwards it to everyone and posts it everywhere.

I'm against drug testing those on welfare simply because drug tests are expensive and they don't prove anything significant. And while our gov't has come up with some creative ways to waste tax money - I'd rather not give them another excuse.

But what pisses me off the most about this entire issue is every time I go into the gas station a few blocks from my job that's located next to a homeless shelter and I catch the cashiers (illegally) cashing out people on their gov't checks as if they bought groceries and such only to sell them beer, sodas and other junk foods.

I'd report the gas station but I doubt how significant an impact it'd make on our welfare system which is such a dire need of reform.
The gas station has to cash those checks, so if they're doing it illegally, their bank is just as much to blame. More than likely, it is not illegal to accept a government check in lieu of cash; it would be thus if they were handing over foodstamps, though for the beer and junk food.

Random drug testing for those on welfare wouldn't accomplish much. Wasn't welfare reform about it being a means to get by but with a promise to find work? That went over well....
ngdawg is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Fotzlid's Avatar
 
Location: Greater Boston area
good points.
however, is doing nothing at all the answer?
it has to start somewhere.
maybe there are so many places illegally cashing checks because nobody ever reports it.
Fotzlid is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
peekaboo
 
ngdawg's Avatar
 
Location: on the back, bitch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotzlid
good points.
however, is doing nothing at all the answer?
it has to start somewhere.
maybe there are so many places illegally cashing checks because nobody ever reports it.
That's just it-maybe what we think is illegal, isn't. A gas station convenience store is still a grocery store and there are no restrictions on what a government check can buy at grocery stores. Well, what it can buy legally.
ngdawg is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
MSD
The sky calls to us ...
 
MSD's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: CT
It all boils down to what welfare is intended to do. If it is intended to replace a salary for those who do not work, the money is theirs to use as they please. If it is intended to buy food and housing, then welfare money should not be spent on anything else. If the system is intended to lift the fallen out of the gutters of society, then subsidized rehabilitation should be part of the program for those with substance abuse problems.
MSD is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 08:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
Psycho
 
I also dont like the implications that people on welfare are druggies.

Wouldnt that mean that all employers who drug test their employees are implying that their employees are druggies? A large number of employers do random, mandatory tests. I would assume, and I would hope, that the tests be non-discriminatory- you need welfare, you take a drug test.
Miss Mango is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 09:27 PM   #14 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
How about drug testing corporate CEOs that receive corporate welfare?

I'm too fucking lazy to check right now, but I'd be curious to know the dollar amount spent on corporate welfare compared to the dollar amount spent on those in poverty. You never hear the Angry-White-Man™ bitching about corporate welfare in email forwards.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 09:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Wouldn't it be better to get rid of the drugs rather than take away the money?

Fight poverty, don't exacerbate it.
Hows that war on poverty going and when can we pull out? How many 100's of billions must we spend on this pointless war?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
How about drug testing corporate CEOs that receive corporate welfare?

I'm too fucking lazy to check right now, but I'd be curious to know the dollar amount spent on corporate welfare compared to the dollar amount spent on those in poverty. You never hear the Angry-White-Man™ bitching about corporate welfare in email forwards.
Corporations provide jobs and fuel the economy.

What does the welfare class provide again?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Last edited by Ustwo; 01-25-2008 at 09:33 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Ustwo is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 09:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo

Corporations provide jobs and fuel the economy.

What does the welfare class provide again?
Business for you when their teeth fall out, and with any luck they've got medicaid.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 09:55 PM   #17 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Hows that war on poverty going and when can we pull out? How many 100's of billions must we spend on this pointless war?

Corporations provide jobs and fuel the economy.

What does the welfare class provide again?
Your lack of compassion is alarming, unless I'm mistaken. If you want to end this "war," what do you propose instead? Do you want to poor to get even poorer, or would you rather reintroduce debtors' prisons, perhaps?

Corporations need workers, and they can get them from the welfare class. Welfare isn't permanent for everyone, you know. There are many who use the system for around two years or so. So, in answer to your question, the welfare class provides a pool of workers if corporations would be willing enough to make enough jobs available.

I hope you aren't assuming that no one on welfare wants to work, and bear in mind that up to a quarter of welfare recipients are so because of disabilities. It can be hard to find work when you're physically limited.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 10:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
Your lack of compassion is alarming, unless I'm mistaken. If you want to end this "war," what do you propose instead? Do you want to poor to get even poorer, or would you rather reintroduce debtors' prisons, perhaps?

Corporations need workers, and they can get them from the welfare class. Welfare isn't permanent for everyone, you know. There are many who use the system for around two years or so. So, in answer to your question, the welfare class provides a pool of workers if corporations would be willing enough to make enough jobs available.

I hope you aren't assuming that no one on welfare wants to work, and bear in mind that up to a quarter of welfare recipients are so because of disabilities. It can be hard to find work when you're physically limited.
Spare me the compassion bull. This white guilt has created a permanent welfare class unable to function on their own (see Katrina) with alarming crime rates, because by throwing money at the problem we have destroyed the black family (for example, this just out yesterday 4 out of 5 black children in Indiana are currently being born out of wedlock, this was much lower until the welfare state was established), and replaced the father with the state. Only problem is the government is a crappy dad.

This problem is growing not shrinking.

So yes I'm sure there is a segment on welfare that is trying to find work and some with claimed disabilities really can't work, so lets separate them from the vast herd of dependents.

I'm not saying cut these people off right away, but fund no further children, focus on training and education, and get their future generations off the government tit.

Of course that would require they don't all vote for democrats and that 'compassion' is really just buying votes at the cost of these peoples future.

Race is far more of an issue for democrats, and far more devastatingly exploited than all the harm things like the KKK ever did. Murder, crime, fear, ignorance, hopelessness, the product of 'compassion'.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 10:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Ustwo, let's not leave out the 16 million impoverished White people in America.

And compassion isn't a Democratic conspiracy; it's a real thing, so don't be afraid of it. I'm not saying you should throw money at any problem, but I do expect effective community and social programs in place to help alleviate the problems of poverty. And if welfare is one of these tools, then so be it. Make it work. There are many other factors affecting the increasingly difficult plight of the impoverished. You can't attribute the whole thing to the introduction of the welfare state.

And while I understand that poverty greatly affects the Black and Hispanic communities, I don't understand your KKK comparison.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-25-2008, 11:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Seaver's Avatar
 
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Fighting poverty is like fighting ugly. The more plastic surgery you do the more ugly you find.

Poverty is not a hard number which states "if you make $X, you are not poor." I know that's what people like to think, with the poverty line and others, but it's simply not the case.

Being poor is a relative. If the average income for a family is $40k, then there will be a lot of people below that line. Fighting it the way we are, we're only moving the average up we're not actually improving those below the average.

You can increase the minimum wage, ok fine. Now cost of labor for everything goes up, along with it the higher level jobs now pay relatively less and so have to get pay raises along with it. All of a sudden those making minimum wage make no more relatively than before the change, but it DID make our cost of living higher than a foreign country. BAM our companies move overseas where it's cheaper relatively, and more mid/lower level jobs disappear.
__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas
Seaver is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 07:31 AM   #21 (permalink)
Delusional... but in a funny way
 
TotalMILF's Avatar
 
Location: deeee-TROIT!!!
I think everybody receiving welfare should be drug tested occasionally. If I'm helping to pay for their existence then I want to be sure that they're not spending my money on drugs and other stupid shit. Ideally (if we had the manpower) I'd have welfare recipients itemize and document every expense paid for with their welfare money. Welfare is great for those that truly deserve it but many, many people abuse it.

A former coworker of mine lived off welfare as she had a slew of children, all by different fathers. She worked about 20 hours a week making $7/hour, yet she still had a Louis Vuitton diaper bag. She was also know to enjoy a fair amount of pot. I sure was glad to see my hard-earned money going towards her children. Riiiiiiight.

I, like ustwo, have little sympathy for the many people on welfare who are abusing the system, not even trying to get out.
__________________
"I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."
TotalMILF is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 07:40 AM   #22 (permalink)
 
dc_dux's Avatar
 
Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotalMILF
I think everybody receiving welfare should be drug tested occasionally. If I'm helping to pay for their existence then I want to be sure that they're not spending my money on drugs and other stupid shit.
Should students who receive federal tuition assistance be drug tested?

Should small business owners who receive financial support from the SBA be drug tested?

Should pastors of faith-based organizations who receive federal grants for local social service programs be drug tested?
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire
dc_dux is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 07:44 AM   #23 (permalink)
Delusional... but in a funny way
 
TotalMILF's Avatar
 
Location: deeee-TROIT!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Should students who receive federal tuition assistance be drug tested?

Should small business owners who receive financial support from the SBA be drug tested?

Should pastors of faith-based organizations who receive federal grants for local social service programs be drug tested?
Yup. I'd submit to a drug test right now to keep my student loans.

Don't you want to know that your hard-earned tax dollars are going toward what they are supposed to, not drugs or alcohol (or Louis Vuitton handbags)??
__________________
"I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."
TotalMILF is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 07:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
dc_dux's Avatar
 
Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotalMILF
Don't you want to know that your hard-earned tax dollars are going toward what they are supposed to, not drugs or alcohol (or Louis Vuitton handbags)??
I dont want discriminatory policies.....either test ALL recipients of federal aid and assistance or none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
This problem is growing not shrinking.
If the problem is growing and not shrinking, why do you attribute it to the welfare program rather than other policies implemented over the last seven years which have resulted in a rise in the number of families in poverty.

The welfare program underwent substantial reform in 1996 as a result of a collective effort of Bill Clinton (much to the chagrin of many of his supporters) and the Republican Congress.

In general terms (with some exceptions) the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (welfare reform act) ended the welfare entitlement (the federal guarantee of assistance to the poor), requires recipients to find work within two years or perform community service, mandates a minimum of 30 work hours per week (for parents with children over age 6), imposes a lifetime limit on receipt of aid, requires greater state enforcement of tracking down deadbeat dads, and rewards states with financial bonuses for reducing their caseloads.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Last edited by dc_dux; 01-26-2008 at 08:15 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dc_dux is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
I honestly do not understand the mindset that holds the poor in such contempt.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:17 AM   #26 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Fighting poverty is like fighting ugly. The more plastic surgery you do the more ugly you find.
And ignoring poverty is like ignoring children. The more you ignore them, the harder things get for them. Children are a large group of people who are put at high risk. Whether it was their parents' "fault" that they exist or are in poverty in the first place is beside the point: The children should be helped. I don't even want to begin to think that there are people in wealthy nations who are willing to allow children to go without food or home. And this brings up another point: There are those on welfare who own homes, and are hoping to god they don't lose them. They are on welfare because some shit hit some fan somewhere and they're trying to hold on and ride out the worst situation of their lives.

In some of the statistics I've looked at in both Canada and the U.S., at least half of the people on welfare are so as a result of job loss, and up to a quarter are so because of a disability. And many of them are there for an average of two years. Sure there are those who abuse the system, there are abusers within every system.

It just so happens that in this particular system there are drug users. I'm sorry, but it's a very common trend to find drug users in low-income situations. Sometimes the drug use is a cause, other times it is a side effect. But to take away their last line of means will only make their situation worse. Even a selfish view would suggest that this isn't desirable; after all, if a drug user can't get money (or help), where do they turn?

I would be against drug testing for welfare recipients; it would seem to be an unnecessary reason to increase the cost of the system. Even if the government could save money by stopping the cash flow to those who they find to be drug users, the overall cost inside and outside of the system (monetary and non-monetary) would be too high.

If you don't like drugs, there are other ways to fight this problem. The best way to do this is to prevent the circumstances under which people decide to do drugs in the first place. You might find this is tied to poverty somehow, but this is another topic.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I honestly do not understand the mindset that holds the poor in such contempt.
It boils down to a lack of compassion (which is not a liberal conspiracy); keeping in mind that compassion is rooted in both thought and action.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-26-2008 at 08:26 AM..
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:21 AM   #27 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpinJesus
I honestly do not understand the mindset that holds the poor in such contempt.
Not wanting to throw good money after bad does not equal contempt.

I hold liberals who think giving away peoples money for votes and creating a helpless underclass in contempt though.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:30 AM   #28 (permalink)
 
dc_dux's Avatar
 
Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Not wanting to throw good money after bad does not equal contempt.

I hold liberals who think giving away peoples money for votes and creating a helpless underclass in contempt though.
I'm curious what your opinion is of the '96 Clinton/Republican welfare reform act ?

Do you think the majority of Democrats in the Senate and nearly half the Democrats in the House who voted for the '96 welfare reform bill did it for votes or to perpetuate "a helpless underclass"? (Roll call votes) I'm assuming your arrogant disdain is only for the ones who voted NO.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Last edited by dc_dux; 01-26-2008 at 08:32 AM..
dc_dux is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 08:30 AM   #29 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Not wanting to throw good money after bad does not equal contempt.
You said you wanted to educate these people--"training and education"--but how can they learn if they have the risk of losing home and sustenance? Please tell me your solution in more detail. What is a good way to spend the money in light of the situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
I hold liberals who think giving away peoples money for votes and creating a helpless underclass in contempt though.
Enough of your conspiracy theory.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 09:07 AM   #30 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UKking
I don't think anyone should be drug tested ever. How about that?
+1. Drug use is irrelevant unless it causes harm.
funydjane is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 09:19 AM   #31 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Not wanting to throw good money after bad does not equal contempt.

I hold liberals who think giving away peoples money for votes and creating a helpless underclass in contempt though.
Which brings me back to my original point. I'd be curious to know your view of conservatives who offer tax loopholes to the extremely wealthy in return for votes and favors. I'm of the mindset that the wealthy return the favor in much more tangible ways than the underclass.

I'm also curious to see what the expenditures of My-Hard-Earned-Money are in regards to how much of My-Hard-Earned-Money is given to people who do not need it compared to those who do need it.

On the issue of contempt, why is it so important for you to be angry with liberals?
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 09:57 AM   #32 (permalink)
Extreme moderation
 
Toaster126's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City, yo.
I wouldn't have a problem with random drug testing for people receiving aid from the government if it wouldn't cost so much money. The system is already sick and corrupted and inefficient without the additional layer.

Besides, drug tests are so ridiculously easy to pass (assuming you know about them a few hours in advance) when you shouldn't that the whole process ends up being more like "do you have enough money to fool the test?"

If we want to actually help people, let's separate the people who want help from the people who want handouts better and stop wasting so much money on the bureaucracy.
__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)
Toaster126 is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 09:59 AM   #33 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Chicago
Totally off-topic, but: Hey, toaster, nice to see you around.
__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses
JumpinJesus is offline  
Old 01-26-2008, 10:19 AM   #34 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
I personally don't think anyone should be drug tested, except for very few jobs where maximum performance is required.

That being said, since we do live in a world where drug testing is a reality, I fully support drug testing those who would take my money from my pocket to spend for themselves. If you want to take what I have, then you should have to do it on my terms. If you have a problem with them, then go get a job.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence
Slims is offline  
Old 01-27-2008, 12:31 AM   #35 (permalink)
Upright
 
I think a piss test in exchange for a gov't handout is reasonable. If you ain't doin' drugs, you ain't got nuttin' to worry about!
Barstool is offline  
Old 01-27-2008, 01:24 AM   #36 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: San Francisco
It's one thing to whore your privacy out to a corporation for money, but the government? Isn't this what the 4th, 5th, 14th, etc amendments were made for? I hardly believe it would pass a constitutional test, even if it were somehow a good idea, though I suppose anything is possible with the current Supreme Court.

What is it about drugs that gets drug warriors so fired up? I think it all goes back to our religious heritage. Because it's all right for people on welfare to sit around watching their big-screen TVs and drinking beer all day, but by God, if they're smoking marijuana heads will roll.

Last edited by n0nsensical; 01-27-2008 at 02:49 AM..
n0nsensical is offline  
Old 01-28-2008, 08:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
Lover - Protector - Teacher
 
Jinn's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, WA
I would support such a thing, simply by anecdotal experience.

I was approached one time outside of a Village Inn (as we were going in) by a man who said he was hungry. He looked like a man who was once well-to-do, wearing a once nice collared shirt that was dirty and worn with overuse. He asked me for some money so he could run across the street and get food.

When I told him that I'd order him a meal inside (where it was also warm) if he wanted to sit with us, he rather vehemently declined. He kept insisting that he could cook and that he could make better food than Village Inn.

To me, it was an obvious ploy to get drug money in the guise of food money. While he might have legitimately been bemoaning the poor quality of VI (it's not exactly high class food), I reasoned that if anyone who was truly starving wouldn't refuse food of any sort, particularly as cold as it was that day.

In a similar way, I think anyone who is in TRUE need for immediate monetary relief (welfare, etc..) should be willing to do certain things to ensure to the ones gifting it that it is being used as they intend it to be. Drug testing, mandatory education classes, etc, etc.

It might not be the best anecdote, but it's the one I think of whenever I think about social programs such as welfare.

I think that recreational drugs are fine, and I even support the legalization of some. But that's for me. I don't support my charitable donation being used so that someone ELSE can do drugs. I provide charitable support because I want them to be able to live a safer, healthier life, not so that they can have a drug habit. If they want to have one, then more power to them - just not on my dime.
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Last edited by Jinn; 01-28-2008 at 08:32 AM..
Jinn is offline  
Old 01-28-2008, 09:33 AM   #38 (permalink)
Living in a Warmer Insanity
 
Tully Mars's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
It's one thing to whore your privacy out to a corporation for money, but the government? Isn't this what the 4th, 5th, 14th, etc amendments were made for? I hardly believe it would pass a constitutional test, even if it were somehow a good idea, though I suppose anything is possible with the current Supreme Court.

What is it about drugs that gets drug warriors so fired up? I think it all goes back to our religious heritage. Because it's all right for people on welfare to sit around watching their big-screen TVs and drinking beer all day, but by God, if they're smoking marijuana heads will roll.
I'm some what torn on this issue. First I think it's kind of a slippery slope that I would tend not to want to tread down. However...

My personal thoughts on drug use are more libertarian then conservative or liberal. You want to smoke pot, crack, smack whatever... as long as you're an adult have at it. Hell legalize all of it. Prohibition didn't work on booze and I don't think it's working on drugs. Do away with this entire 'so called" war on drugs. The money could be spent in much more logical ways, IMO.

However, if you need assistance from the government because you can't obtain or maintain employment I don't think it's unreasonable to look at substance abuse as an issue. I've know many people who drink socially without issue. I've also known people who let drinking ruin just about ever aspect of their lives. I don't think there's that much difference with recreational drug use. If this is causing you to need assistance from other tax payers then I don't see why you shouldn't have to maintain and prove your sobriety to get that assistance.
__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club
Tully Mars is offline  
Old 01-28-2008, 12:07 PM   #39 (permalink)
has a plan
 
Hain's Avatar
 
Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere
If I have to take random drug tests at my school or for my work, they should too.

The only reasoning I see against doing so is the cost.
__________________
Hain is offline  
Old 01-28-2008, 12:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
Pissing in the cornflakes
 
Ustwo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by n0nsensical
It's one thing to whore your privacy out to a corporation for money, but the government? Isn't this what the 4th, 5th, 14th, etc amendments were made for? I hardly believe it would pass a constitutional test, even if it were somehow a good idea, though I suppose anything is possible with the current Supreme Court.

What is it about drugs that gets drug warriors so fired up? I think it all goes back to our religious heritage. Because it's all right for people on welfare to sit around watching their big-screen TVs and drinking beer all day, but by God, if they're smoking marijuana heads will roll.
Simple, if you don't like the policy and such, then don't accept free money from the government.

Its not forcing people to be tested, its forcing people to be tested in order to receive handouts.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.
Ustwo is offline  
 

Tags
eligible, passing, random, tests, urine, welfare

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:16 PM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360