The_Jazz

OK, I can live with that.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Sultana

I think it's important to try to evaluate posts on their own merit as much as possible. Sure, sometimes it's hard, but it's not impossible.

It can be annoying when folks are having a thread about the merits of various brands of peanut butter, and someone suddenly pops off with, "of course you'd like *Skippy*, you gun-loving, first amendment-hating dork..." or something like.

Not at all saying you (SC) are doing that, or have done it. Certainly others have though, and I exaggerate for effect.

I certainly have issues with at least one regular poster here. But I don't let myself hold grudges as it were, and to address the topic at hand.

I'd like to make it clear that I am not talking about the Tec/Chim thing...that is not a typical situation.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Halx

SC, I view irresponsible posts as bandwagon responses, knee-jerk criticisms, and diversions from a topic. If you can think of a reasonable way to respond to a post that you feel is a little too pompous that displays your maturity and intelligence, I want to see it. I don't know if I'm even addressing your concerns, but all I can do is seek new ways to say the same thing at this point. I think the social game has too much sway on topics. In today's society, it is more important to be popular than to be right. Why is that? Why can't we be different?

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You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

World's King

For the most part I don’t post long responses unless I have something really fuckin’ important to say. Like now.


You fucking people drive me nuts. You know that?


Every single on of you overestimate the common TFP user. Along with yourself. Just because you or anyone else on here has the basic knowledge how the internet works and has a pretty good schooling background doesn’t mean you know all there is to know about everything. Don’t get me wrong. I’m very impressed with slightly more than half of what you all say about how society works and how it should work and politics and what’s wrong with each and every other member here. Believe me. If I was to compile all the posts here into a book about society… we would all be sent away for a very long time. I’m not saying you all are dumb. I know that all of you have your little corner of the world that you rule over and in that world you know all. And trust me… I have my little corner too. But unlike most people here I know when it’s time for me to voice my opinion and when it’s time for me to retreat back to my little corner and watch the egos fight over pretty much nothing. And yes, I’m normally the first one to jump into a pissing contest and after a few beers I’ll piss for hours. But I only jump in after I’ve found something useful to say. I’m not just talking to here the sound of my own keyboard.

Next time you think you’re having a great discussion with one of the members here; you should stop and ask yourself, “Do I even have the foggiest fuckin’ clue what I’m talking about or better yet what the fuck does the other person think they know?” And yes, I understand we’re trying to base our responses on the posts themselves and not the member posting it but some times that doesn’t work. See, I’m known for being full of shit. So why would you trust anything comes out of my head? And I’m not saying you shouldn’t. Just don’t be so quick to respond. Sit back. Think about it. No one here is smarter than you. You have absolutely nothing to prove. You’re just having a conversation. You might be right or the other person might be right. But really, at the end of the day does it matter? Are we all here to solve world hunger, cure AIDS, or figure out why Bush always smiles when talking about war? No. We’re not. We can talk about those things but nothing is really ever gonna come of it other than entertainment.


I can think of a few other people besides me that just wanna hang out with good people and relax. Sure every once in a while I’m gonna throw down on a heated topic but for the most part I’m just gonna sit back and watch you all make pretty much fools of yourself trying to be the first one everyone else agrees with. I’m so proud. You got a bunch of people that spend most of their time on the internet to agree with you on something. Talk to your family. Play with your kids. Have a conversation with a random person. Get them to see where you’re coming from. Make a real human connection. After you do all that on a regular basis then you can talk to the rest of us what it’s like to a fucking human. Cause until then you are nothing but a robot. And thus will be treated that way.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Carno

What the hell does this have to do with anything?

World's King

It goes along with the rest of my post.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Carno

I don't get it... are you claiming that everyone who argues on the internet has no life and is a robot?

World's King

For the most part... yes.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

The_Jazz

WK - first of all, thanks for an entertaining post. Given that you rarely seem to take anything seriously, it was fun to read just for the entertainment value.

And if I can read between the lines a little, I think that's a very good point. All of this - TFP, the internet, the Web - is self-created entertainment. Why have I been hanging around TFP all day when I could have been working the deals on my desk today? Because frankly this is much more entertaining that prematurely pestering some underwriter about something that he's probably not going to be interested in anyway. There aren't any fires today, so I've spent a good portion of today screwing around here because it's much more interesting than rehashing loss history on a gravel hauler/asphalt contractor in North Dakota (which actually is the next thing in my pile). The only reason any of us are here is to be entertained by whatever threads interest us. Sometimes we learn something along the way, but that's almost always an accidental byproduct of the entertainment.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

World's King

Yippie... You understood. Thank you.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

powerclown

A real what?
..........

ngdawg

There's also a bend toward 'carnal assumption'-taking what words are in front of you and not bothering to comprehend what is being said, followed by 'carnal response'.
I've seen this in every single forum I've ever been part of: simply put, people read text with their own inflections and accented words. A simple 'Why should I...?' could be read 3 different ways and taken at least two different ways-either a legitimate question of 'how come' or personal affront.
I'd add to Chimera's 3 and add another 3-"I don't understand". And if you still have difficulties with someone's post or how you're reading it, there's this feature called 'private message'....
We're all adults(or pretending to be to get in here); we should be able to have a level of discussion without going the 'poopyhead' route.
Type, read it, read it again, edit and if it looks too poopyheaded, if that's not how you yourself would want to be addressed, close the window....

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Ch'i

Misunderstanding seems to be taken very personally on the boards. Opinions as well. There is no need to call anyone a fool for not sharing a point of view. Insinuating faults that hold no pertinence in a discussion serve only to hinder the forum. It adds nothing save for acting as a detterent to those who wish to join the debate. Keep this in mind.

I know its an obvious reasoning, but I feel it should be said every once in awhile.

FoolThemAll

LOL. This robot can live with that. It's odd that it would never occur to the self-proclaimed king of the world that some might find entertainment in serious debate. Luckily for me, at least, my postings don't require any level of pride from you.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Tigerlily

Heyzuess! This place takes itself waaaaaay too seriously...

Supple Cow

I appreciate your non-reactionary response to my criticism. You are getting warmer and colder at the same time.

Hal, even though I know you are trying to look at the quality of this post and not rely on what you know about me... of the choice between being right and being popular, you know which I would choose just as well as I do. Of course, I would prefer being right only because I prefer to be the best person I can be and to grow when at all possible. I would prefer being wrong to being popular, too. Popularity holds little value for me. You said everything above as if you were trying to get me off of my irrelevant topic and onto this important one, but this is the topic I have been getting at all along.

Anybody who has read at least a handful of my posts or some of my journals has probably come to expect that I put a lot of thought into what I write and generally stay pretty level-headed. This has not changed about me, and yet the nature of my posts has obviously changed of late. Why is this? Because we are talking about why there aren't as many interested (or interesting) people on the TFP as there used to be. I have heard the reasoning of seasons and waves of interest. There are down times and up. I understand this and my participation changes like this as well. But there is another reason why in the last several months (aside from transitional times such as when I was relocating or out of town) I have not felt the desire to participate here as much. That is because there seems to be a somewhat pervasive desire for popularity rather than one for expressing our ideas honestly, no matter who agrees. It is a social pressure, and I don't think it affects everyone, but it does affect enough people to make a difference. When I refer to 'hens' and how the TFP is becoming a 'henhouse' in the other thread, this is what I mean.

It is starting to feel like it is only okay for men to display the full range of personalities around here, and when a woman sticks her head out too far, some [passive]aggressive hens come and peck at her. I was also going to point out that roosters sometimes join in, too, specifically thinking of when Ch'i said "Such hostility, Supple Cow!" But now that I look for the post where he said it, I see that he has edited that part out. Thanks for leaving that part out, Ch'i. Maybe this place won't be overrun by henhouse antics after all.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

serlindsipity

Why is it when an attempt at a serious opinion (King) is stated that everyone either shuts down and snaps back or proceeds to turn it in to a joke? thats a sign of not listening or really giving a damn.

And in regards to arguing, whatever happened to asking questions to get a better answer? We are a product of our experiences and perhaps sharing them (along with our personality, sorry Hal) will produce a better understanding of the person AND their beliefs. So what if they are wrong in their thinking? Actually, scratch that, the only way most people are wrong in their thinking is if someone else tells them that (excluding law breaking and math, and even those can be overturned in magnificent ways).

it seems one of our most important needs in our existance has broken down... The need to communicate and be heard. Everyone wants to talk, no one wants to listen and god forbid no one wants to be wrong. This also undermines the ability to learn. If we all happen to be so educated (and i know quite a few are) how have we lost our ability to question and think out of the box? Thats just simply implies we are all digressing, fan-fucking-tastic.

I could be wrong, but what happened to agree to disagreeing and trying to get something out of it? No more name calling, arguing for arguing's sake (dont we deal with enough of that bullshit in real life) and whatever vindictive stuff thats been going on here.

Just fucking play nice already.

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My third eye is my camera's lens.

Carno

Are we supposed to give a damn about every single post on the TFP? There are many posts that seemingly get ignored.

serlindsipity

oh i know many get ignored. if youre new and/or dont have an avatar, youre bottom of the totem pole. But maintaining such mentality is why this place gets labeled as "elitist"

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My third eye is my camera's lens.

Carno

That's not what I meant. There are many posts by members with avatars that never get direct responses, and that has nothing to do with elitism.

Also, many people gave their serious opinions in this thread, so I'm not sure why you seem to think only World's King had one. In any case, a couple people did make serious replies to World's King's post, so your gripe holds no water.

Daniel_

Have you looked down the back of the sofa?

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

KnifeMissile

To be honest, I prefer it that way.

People who take themselves seriously are more interesting than people who just fuck around. If I wanted random nonesense posted I could just watch a bunch of monkeys typing at a typewriter...

How do you distinguish "shutting down" (although I think you might mean "shoots down") or "snapping back" and disagreement?

Maye times have changed but, for the longest time, I didn't have an avatar and I felt that people took my posts seriously. In some forums, I think I was rather well respected...

spectre

I think avatars were enabled for everyone now, so that shouldn't be a problem.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Astrocloud

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I present my first (second) post in 11 months to bring you this:

Exhibit A: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=42001

Exhibit B: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=95407

In Exhibit A, I was given a warning from a moderator for being an antagonistic asshole. S/He may not have used those words exactly -but this is somewhat close to the idea. Okay, so no more posty in politics...

Exhibit B; my "paranoid" belief was openly made fun of by other members where the rules explicitly say : "Don't mock, call names, or ridicule". When I started complaining ie hitting the "triangle-!" button -I was warned by a Moderator not to do that ie. -I was wasting their time. So I left.

I have always understood that the TFP is not my bandwidth. There are things that I liked about coming here. But this lopsided popularity contest with the moderators -is not one of them.

I'm not sure if this new rule has changed anything or not. I don't even know if it is a "new rule". Things sure have changed for me since I left. I'd love to discuss our fucked up thoughts with everyone. I just don't know if I'm welcome here.

ubertuber

The mods have taken a lot of heat over everything from being a clique to overmoderating to undermoderating to playing favorites to being above the rules. And we've been taking it pretty well - people need a chance to vent and get their feelings heard. However, I'm not playing this particular game with you - and I'm not going to let this be a one-sided mud-slinging contest. Since you brought this up, I went back and counted at least 8 PMs from 3 different mods engaging you and your 5 reported posts on this matter. All were discussed and debated among the moderating team. That's is hardly a popularity contest or summary dismissal. You know what? You don't always get every desire granted - we just didn't agree with your interpretation of events. There never was anything more or less to that.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Astrocloud

Sounds like your being fair to everyone. except:

So what exactly is it about me that makes you take exception?

ubertuber

Astro:

It's because I think that in other cases we have shared in the blame but in this one I don't think that is the case. It's the fact this is a general thread and you are using it to bring up an inaccurate account of a personal gripe (that I feel is completely unjustified) combined with the general tendency I see for mods to be hamstrung by our attempts to be respectful of people's privacy and not post details of incidents. However, you've brought this up, and I felt that your portrayal of events was unfair, inaccurate, and unreasonable. I feel that you were treated extremely reasonably by a very patient staff, of which I was a member. I have no desire to let the "code of silence" allow you to distort that history.

That's about fairness to me and the other mods. It goes both ways. As it goes, this is a threadjack in a thread that deserves to continue on in the vein it was written. I'll let you have the last word if you like. If you want to discuss things in the open, you're welcome to make a different thread. For what it's worth, I'm not at all hostile to your return, just to getting dumped on unfairly.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

ngdawg

Uhm....I don't see anything swinging atcha there, Astro....and in the vein of the OP, I don't see anything resembling favortism or any leanings by the mods that participated. I'd say that,except for Pan's exceptional scriptwriting, that was a more innocuous exchange than many.
/end participation of threadjack

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Astrocloud

It's really swell that I get the last word and all -but I've never been about getting the last word. It's always been about a discussion. "Getting the last word" belies having a discussion.

In fact, my little post was NOT a threadjack IT IS TOUCHING UPON THE SUBJECT AT HAND. Certain people *Ahem* are so sensitive when I say anything that they take only the parts that they want to see. My post above, was not only about Exhibit B.

I also brought up Exhibit A.

Exhibit B is presented because it's about moderating others who violate the rules "against me". I don't care as much about exhibit B -as exhibit A. I can live with a bias in favor of expression -if I also have the right to expression.

Now this doesn't mean that I'm going to go straight to the Paranoia forum and tell people to put on their tinfoil hats (which others are allowed to do if I am the poster) -but within the context of a discussion I should be able to tell a person that they are being unreasonable -without some Moderator sending me a warning.

This is my point. I hope I am clear now.

Glory's Sun

so wait.. why are we living in the past?? I thought the whole point of evolution was to just move forward. Constantly bringing up the past doesn't do much good when things have been changed and the push forward is already in place.

Supple Cow

That's a disheartening statement coming from a Super Moderator. Did you read the whole thread? I think it is a pretty good context for letting people bring up past events that don't sit well during this time of change... especially when Hal asks for feedback. It's one thing to chime in and disagree with the claims being made, but another to dismiss people entirely and cite the reason as "the push forward is already in place." From your position of authority on this board, that comes off as just a fancy way of saying, "drop it, or else."

I just wanted to address this, even though some people around here seem to think I'm just being crazy, indiscernible or simply that I'm beating a dead horse. I personally think it is important not to let this get brushed under the rug.

Sultana, your first suggestion is generally a valid one, but it just emphasizes Hal's point over again... and the deficiencies of such an attitude. Suppose I were to take issue with something you said and I told you, 'You just need to try to think a little more like a dancer, Sultana. I think that would help you understand better.' I would be suggesting that you don't know/do something you already do. If I didn't know that you were a dancer, maybe it wouldn't bug you as much, but wouldn't you be a little irritated hearing that from somebody who should know that by now? To take the focus off of Sultana now...

I have not been arguing that posts shouldn't be evaluated on their own merit; in fact, my protestations are to argue exactly the opposite - that posts should be evaluated for their merit. But to what end? To form an opinion about that person and his/her contributions. I think anybody who denies that is fooling himself. Think of why your friends and loved ones are your friends and loved ones... isn't it the same reason? Because they have given you many reasons over time (countless events) to trust and love them. In Hal's version, we ignore what we know about a person and each post is an island... but then we are challenged to judge a post's merit. This is truly a conundrum. How can we be take a good reputation as motivation to post in a respectable fashion if we are at the same time eschewing the notion of a reputation?

That said, I think the real disagreement with me is that some people perceived my actions as picking on someone. It never had anything to do with evaluating a post based on its merit.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Glory's Sun

I wasn't dismissing people entirely; and if I wanted to say "drop it, or else" I would have said just that. I'm sick of all the complaining and bitching about this happened to me and that happened a while back. Big fucking deal. Seriously.

The fact remains that the mods are finding new and better ways of better interaction with users and that Hal is back and things are moving forward. This thread does nothing but remind me of board meetings where all the middle managers complain because the executives aren't doing anything, yet the executives have given the middle managers power to make decisions and move the company forward. The board is progressing and everyone has been given the power to help with forward push. Yet all I continue to see is bickering about.. what exactly?? To be perfectly honest and blunt. I don't see much wrong with this place except people are putting their energies into the wrong areas. Instead of typing out that long post saying you disagree with everything how about do something constructive and help with the forward progress? (note this isn't directed directly to you Supple)

So go ahead call a spade a spade.. just make sure you call it right in case your bluff gets called out.

tinfoil

Mm, indeed. Using evolution or change as a reason to dwell on past mistakes does get tedious. Bring up the mistakes, yes, as a way to learn, but at some point it's beating a dead horse.

I have my own reason for having left the TFP in the past, but as I don't have any suggestion on how to fix that mistake, I'll keep it to myself. Besides, it's been discussed already. The fact that the PTBs recognize that change is/was needed is plenty enough to bring me back into the fold, for what it's worth.

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Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.

World's King

Supple_Cow... I have to ask you a question. Did you read my post? And if you did, what did you think of it?

I only ask this because I get the feeling you don't really have stance on any of this and are just picking easy things to argue against.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Marvelous Marv

(Sigh.) That's your opinion, and it's been disproved repeatedly. And yet you still call it fact.

Besides, his message is directed to the MODERATORS. Ending the existing practice of terminating threads prematurely would be a welcome change.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

ubertuber

As far as I know, that has died down for all but the most egregious offenders - for months now...

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Daniel_

The simple answer is that there are not enough restrained British moderators.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Elphaba

...with horns and forked tongue.

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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Ourcrazymodern?

And glowing minds and loins.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT