Did force on force training this weekend...wow

It really doesn't have much to do with being pro/anti gun/ccw/nukes/whatever as you seem to be implying. Half the point of bringing it up is being able to recognize situations where escalation is probably your best bet. Pretty tough to pull a gun out to defend yourself if you aren't carrying one.

I agree that most of the time when escalation has become even a reasonable option (given the circumstances) you're probably already fucked, but that doesn't mean you aren't worse off for not recognizing that it might be your best option. Because, you know, sometimes it might actually be your best option.

 

This whole thread:

Plus:

Your training brain works faster than your thinking brain.

You can't escalate above having a gun/knife pointed at you, man. Being shot/stabbed is not in the escalation of force continuum.

 

I grew up on the other side of the river from you, live in the midwest now. And officially, I hit the range four times a year. But I go more, BLM land has a free range 20 minutes from my current location. i make stops, so I go find problems. And the deputies try like hell to get to stuff as quickly as possible. And if it's a domestic violence, which is very common, then you might have both parties turn on you.

 

Perhaps there is a formal definition for escalation for this context which I don't understand and therefore am not using the appropriate term but in any case, I think you'll understand what I mean by: They can't escalate, but you still can, within the context of your own resistance.

 

Yeah, forget the jargon.

And I'd imagine the last dozen posts were basically a minor misunderstanding since we obviously come from different backgrounds.

Despite desperately wanting to avoid it, I'm totally cool with violence. When presented with a threat, I want to neutralize it completely.

Giving my wallet up to a mugger is a reasonable course of action. Best course of action is instantly stopping his ability to harm me.

Can I always exercise the best course of action? No. Should I prepare myself with training and hardware? Yes. Best course of action.

My overarching goal is to get home in one piece to those crippling blowjobs and watch the History Channel's The Universe on Netflix.

Pretty much covered what I wanted to say here. Criminal psychics. Escalation of force continuum. Blowjobs. Snarky quoting. Yep.

 

This thread isn't over until we have pics:


Tacti-cop from Today's Miami Herald. Personally, I think he might need more kevlar.

On topic:
Great thread. I've always wanted to train with Airsoft, to simulate a two-way range. All those "up-downs" and "turn-n-shoots" might be a little different if a .30 cal ball of lead has a possibility of embedding itself in my face.

I've also always wondered the best COA: when engaging an armed threat that's not attacking you directly--Warning commands first or shoot first? I guess that's situation dependent?

Also relevant--but how realistic?


Btw: omega. I love Domestic Violence cases. The whole DV system is so stacked against males (at least here in Florida it is).
--- merged: Jul 31, 2012 at 10:49 PM ---
*ETA:* Holy Hell. I think our tacticop friend up there is wearing a PASGT. I mean all that Kevlar and you can't get an ACH? C'mon!

 

But is he attacking somebody with the intention of using deadly force? A knife wielder 30 yards away, maybe use commands. Somebody 21 feet away, put them down. Its what you can vocalize in court. This is what I did and why I did it. was there means, opportunity, and jeopardy? If you can vocalize those three things, you will be better covered. Ou r training doesnt cover groin kicks. We strike the nerve clusters on the inner thigh. But are we kicking somebody who is actively resisting but not assaulting, or the guy who has his fists up coming towards me?

 

Negative.

Tactifatties and Hot Chicks are polar opposites.

Tactifatties are typically obese white males in full ninja gear for no reason and either super cheap garbage guns or super radical blasters that American military guys wish they could carry. Occasionally you'll get an African-American or Asian one, but that's pretty rare. Their priority is to spend a ton of money on guns and gear and minimal money on ammunition and training. They go to training classes to show off their new crap and socialize.

Sure, they're silly but they probably have a lot of fun. Whatever. I don't care as long as they're relatively safe (can be a problem with these guys).

Hot Chicks are either Relatively Proficient shooters or Completely Clueless with guns. In either case, they're built like aerobics instructors and almost always dress to make sure you notice their hard work despite the obvious hazards. Low cut blouse = hot brass catcher. Tight pants = DIY crotch vent.

Said eye candy typically show up with their tattooed male partner in a giant black SUV and can also be a Racial Minority, Police Officer, etc.

/stereotypes

/sorry I totally shit all over ChrisJericho's thread

 

The class was pretty much joe-average type people. There was 1 cop. Two ladies in their 40's, I think they were both nurses. No extremely overweight people, but some of them could stand to lose a few pounds.

The guys who pulled their guns in the convenience store robberies when it wasn't exactly beneficial were the ones who showed up to class decked out in TAD type gear with morale patches on their clothes and maxpedition type bags. One of them afterwards when he was thinking about how he started the gun fight said "Maybe I'm too trigger happy."

Also the guy in the knife scenario who kept yelling out to "drop the weapon" while the bad guy kept stabbing away at the girl was talking about beforehand how much of one of the pistol leagues he does.

I'm not saying this in order to make myself look good, but rather to point out no mater what type of training someone does, it's impossible to know how they will react in "real" situations. When I started thinking about punching the guy from behind afterwards I realized how stupid of an idea that was and how I should have have either kicked him in the nuts from behind or found an improvised weapon (there were some paper cups on the tables that were supposed to be real glasses). But most of my unarmed combat muscle memory is from martial arts which have rules against doing that sort of thing, so I defaulted to my most basic level of training of trying to punch him in the face from behind even though I had far better options available to me.

 

Generally speaking, I think it's pretty predictable. If you choose to do something, you typically do what you know best without thinking.

Spent a lot of time doing "threat assessments" in the midst of those shitstorms, huh? "Threat!" Shit-shit-shit! That's good cardio royt thar.

 

Force on force is always a great eye-opener.

If nothing else it will show you your own limitations and how chaotic any real-world situation is likely to be.

Your FOF seemed to focus on the human/psychological aspect of how people react, etc. That is important, but it is also valuable to see how badly you perform when you are getting shot back at and how to blend tactics with practical reality. Particularly with Simmunitions, which hurt, a lot.

 

Pfft, only those solid tip ones. The split tip FX rounds are like kisses from an angel.

 

Yeah I'd imagine I would be pretty terrible at any distance beyond 3 yards with a bad guy shooting back at me. In the scenario where I shot my gun the only thing I did in terms of aiming was put the big white front sight dot on the guy. Trigger reset never even crossed my mind.

It would have been nice to have some more elaborate scenarios but they only had so much time in the class due to the other subjects that had to be covered. The instructors said they have had plans for an second course in the series called "Advanced Confrontation Simulations"

Advanced Confrontation Simulations Training

They have never put on the class though because they said the 'tactics' type classes never fill up because the average joe doesn't see the value in paying to shoot airsoft/simunitions in a somewhat realistic environment, but all the carbine and handgun shooting classes are routinely filled. The instructors told us as a class to e-mail the school owner if we'd like to see this class offered in the future so I'm going to do that.

 

Plan 9: Have you ever used UTM? That shit sucks.

Chris: The basic takeaways are that 1: In real life situations you get tunnel vision bad focused on whatever threat you see first; 2: You get super sloppy; 3: Your buddies don't act the way you would expect them too.

Through training a lot of this can be overcome or managed, but if nothing else it is valuable to be aware of how fallible we really are.

 

Haven't had the pleasure. But I'm on a budget, so I only attend classes with low end carbines and pistols.

When they come out with a full bore Simunitions M-72... I'll be the first dude to sign up for that class.

As an armed civilian, he's pretty much always going to be alone. One-Man Wolf Pack.

Other CCW guys in the room? Oh snap! Just more poo-poo in the "ooo-duh" brain boogie.

Good thing most of those dirty hippies in the northwest don't usually carry pistols.

 

uh, better just CUFF any passengers, until the felony arrest is over with, they can be setting you up from behind, and if the driver starts something, you will probably not pay any attention to the others, whom you have "searched" (or you think that you did, or a bro officer did). But people get weapons thru such cursory searches all the time, or attack you with no weapon, or snatch up something to throw or bash you with, or flee, (andTHEY are the greater threat, perhaps).
--- merged: Jan 27, 2013 at 7:07 PM ---
u know what we'd now have, if a ccw permit holder (with VERY rare exceptions) had been in the theater? A bunch of WILD shots, innocents hit, and a HUGE outcry to do away with ccw, that's what. Maybe one ccw holder in 1000 would have a CLUE how to handle that properly.
--- merged: Jan 27, 2013 at 7:12 PM ---
the 'threat" of the knife varies a lot, depending upon length of the blade, agility of the knife wielder, floor surface, furniture or other stuff in the way, distance between you and knife man, etc, etc. If i've got a decent pistol and load, and there's chairs in the way, slipperly floor surface, etc, and he's 5 yds away with a pocket knife, I'm not all THAT scared. If it was in the open and the danger was an attack trained Rottwieller, in full charge but 15 yds, away, I'd be MUCH more scared, but then I've been an MP dog handler and I've worn the attack suit when a big dog was "sicced" onto me. I've also been charged by dogs after I've shot them, one with a .45 acp "hot" swc, and another when I was using 125 gr jhp 357's, in a 4 3/4" barreled SA revolver.