Education costs and student debt: a crisis or simply discontent?

Baraka_Guru · May 16, 2012

I'm not sure if this is making news where you are, but there are long-term, widespread, and disruptive protests ongoing in Quebec among post-secondary students. I say I'm not sure because even in Canada there is a strong sense of disregard concerning a) the seriousness of the issue, and b) its legitimacy.

Many would write the students off as "extremists" (though a small proportion are, admittedly) or "spoiled" (Quebec has relatively low tuition in Canada, admittedly). But these criticisms/indifference miss the mark when you realize the bigger picture.

First, some background from Wikipedia:

The 2012 Quebec student protests are a series of ongoing class boycotts and student demonstrations led by Quebec students' associations, students, and their supporters against the 2012-2017 rise in university tuition fees advocated by the Charest government. The class boycott officially got under way on February 13, 2012, and, as of March 26, 2012, involved 193,000 students and 171 student associations. On March 22, 2012, in Montreal, a large march took place, with the demonstration organisers estimating that 200,000 people took part.

[...]

University tuition fees in Quebec were frozen at $540 per year from 1968 to 1990. In 1994, tuition rose to $1668 per year, after which it was frozen until 2007, when it grew by $100 per year until 2012, making it $2168. Overall, tuition increased 300% between 1989 and 2012, not including other fees that are paid to universities (e.g. administration fees, student service fees, etc.).

[...] Only a third of OECD countries have tuition rates higher than $1500 USD.

It would seem that much of the criticism comes easily from established baby boomers who not only received their post-secondary education at a fraction of the current cost (in real terms) but also had the benefit of a much more favourable job market. So much has changed in a generation. I think these protests underscore the deep divide and disconnect that exists, and it is just now boiling over.

What's more, it looks as though things might get a bit hairy: Quebec gets ready to play hardball with student protesters - The Globe and Mail

What's interesting is that this seems relatively contained. It's only happening here in Quebec. Surely they are not unique with regard to their financial situation as students. Evidence points to a wider problem that too could reach crisis levels:

It's crazy-expensive and getting more so every year while middle-class incomes stagnate or worse. As states cut back on support, families are having to pick up the tab. This has sent student debt skyrocketing past $1 trillion. The share of students taking out loans to attend public college has increased from 42% in 1992 to 93% in 2008. Thirty years ago, one in 100 students at nonprofit private colleges took on more than $50,000 in debt. Today, it's one in seven.

The Student Debt Crisis We Don't Talk About - Derek Thompson - Business - The Atlantic

What do you think?

Will this crisis boil over provincial and national borders? Is it a crisis?

Do you sympathize with the students, or do you view this as a basic reality?

Is Obama right in seeking to alleviate the cost of education?

Should Canada do more on a federal level to help?

Should schools be held accountable for their costs?

What do you see as the biggest risks to high education costs?

Bodkin van Horn · May 16, 2012

I think the whole system is fucked from a finance perspective.

First, anyone with a pulse can get a loan, which means that schools have zero incentive to not raise tuition every year. The president of my alma mater was bragging about "holding the line" on tuition last week because he only proposed a 3.5% increase for next year. He makes something like $600,000 a year to pose for pictures, because as far as I can tell, PR seems to be his main responsibility.

The US Government, which can issue debt at around 2%, hands out loans at interest rates substantially higher than that, so it has no incentive to change the system.

The simplistic response is to blame the students, but whatever. These kids have been told their whole lives that college is the only way to get ahead in the world, and that regardless of how much college costs, it's worth it. These are kids, by the way. 17 or 18 years old. Can't buy alcohol. Can agree to decades of crushing debt.

It isn't just the english majors either. My undergrad was in mechanical engineering. When I graduated, the starting wage for my degree had just dropped about $10,000 and people with experience were taking all the jobs that normally went to new grads. So, despite having a "money" degree, I couldn't get a job in my field. Because I was lucky, I was able to find a job doing something tangentially related to my degree that enabled me to help feed my family, but it wasn't near what I'd been promised by the assholes in the career counseling office.

A lot of the other folks in my class decided to go on to grad school instead of work because jobs didn't exist. I worked for a year and went back to school, and I'm about 7 days from being done with the second time around. I've doubled my debt load, but unlike mechanical engineering, my current field, statistics, is a fairly good field to be in right now. If I continue to be lucky, I will be in a position to repay my loans in a fairly timely manner (you know, 10 or 20 years from now).

I think schools should be held accountable for the number of their students who default. Or, at least they should have to pay into a fund used to fund debt relief for students who have a good excuse for being unable to pay off their loans on schedule in order to qualify for federal financial aid.

We need a system that lets talented people go to school and doesn't crush people for taking the risk of going to college and losing.

martian · May 16, 2012

There are indicators that the protests may move into Ontario. I certainly wouldn't blame the students; college debts are unreal.

I never went to college, and was fortunate enough that I managed to land on a good career path despite that. I'm grateful that in my case I didn't have to take on thousands of dollars of debt to get ahead, but I also believe that I'm the exception instead of the rule.

Recent studies have shown that higher education impacts nearly every facet of life, even for people with 'soft' degrees. In general, a greater degree of education leads to better health, and better social mobility. Education ultimately helps people make better choices about their lifestyle and moral outlook, which ultimately leads to a more prosperous society.

We should be doing everything in our power to make college education more accessible. Instead we seem to be going in the opposite direction.

rogue49 · May 16, 2012

So now that we found all this gas & oil in the North Central & West states.
Can we all have a free secondary eduction like some of the Middle Eastern countries???
PLEASE...pretty please with a cherry on top.

Wait a minute...we have no shmuck overly consuming outside nation like US to buy all the oil/gas and give it to the national pool.
It all goes to corporate stock holders...while we pay for oil/gas subsidies.
Oh, that's how it works.

Hey, I went to CA way back when...when it was $5 per credit. (CT where I started was much more expensive)
Used their community colleges...setup a Tag program with a "name" school to finish in. Saved tons. Don't have a bill today.

Don't know what I'm going to do to get any Masters or PhD now.
I guess I have to make LOTS of money, so I can get more education, and make LOTS of money.

Nah, I think I just win the Nobel Prize for my idea, win a million,
then save that, when they give me an honorary degree for my brillance.

Plan9 · May 16, 2012

Bodkin van Horn said: ↑

We need [another] system that lets talented people go to school and doesn't crush people for taking the risk of going to college and losing.
Click to expand...

Levite · May 17, 2012

I am deeply, deeply in favor of prioritizing, funding, and providing everyone with maximum education and minimum cost.

In addition to believing that all schools should be very well-funded and supplied (and control of curricula and programming localized and decentralized), I actually believe that education at state schools should be free from Pre-Kindergarten through undergraduate (including costs of textbooks, room, and board); and that any citizen or legal resident of the US who gets into a properly accredited private college should qualify for grant monies equivalent to the cost of tuition at a state university, and an interest-free loan for the balance of their tuition, textbooks, and living expenses. I also believe any US citizen or legal resident who gets into a properly accredited graduate program should qualify for grants covering some percentage of their tuition, and interest-free loans covering the balance of tuition and living expenses. I think mandatory repayment of those loans should begin not at graduation, but at obtaining employment in their field following graduation. And I think that people who get degrees to work in public service fields should automatically qualify for at least partial forgiveness of their graduate loans.

I also believe that people who agree to work in the public sector for a specified period of time following graduation should qualify for complete forgiveness of their graduate loans.

And I believe that private lenders of educational loans should be prohibited from charging more than 1% interest, and should be compelled to at least partial loan forgiveness in the event of the borrower's bankruptcy.

To pay for these things, I advocate several changes to produce revenue:
first, I advocate a slight surtax on extremely high incomes of a capital gains nature.
Second, I advocate a slight reduction in defense spending (let's say, reducing the US defense budget by around $50 billion or so, adjusted).
Third, I advocate the universal legalization and taxation (and regulation) of marijuana and industrial hemp.
Fourth, I advocate decriminalizing (but not legalizing) all drugs currently classified as "Schedule III" or lower, and most drugs currently classified as "Schedule II."
Fifth, I advocate the universal legalization and taxation (and regulation) of prostitution and gambling. (These latter three will not only generate massive new tax revenues in and of themselves as well as in subsidiarily related or tangentially generated industries, but will save enormous sums currently wasted on attempts on enforcement, petty judicial procedures, extra police and guards, and excessive prison building and maintenance, among other things.)
Sixth, I advocate a corporate "monopoly" surtax, whereby corporations that have their fingers in too many pies (e.g., General Electric), or monopolize certain sectors of product (e.g., Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley) must contribute something extra to the treasury to compensate for their poor corporate citizenship.
And seventh, I favor ending all Federal subsidies to corporations in the business of non-renewable energy (oil, gas, coal, etc.), or in corporate agribusiness; and drastically reducing if not eliminating most Federal subsidies to corporations of any kind with annual global gross incomes above $1B.

rogue49 · May 17, 2012

Perspective from the school side...

Slowly, as Student Debt Rises, Colleges Confront Costs
By ANDREW MARTIN
May 14, 2012

COLUMBUS, Ohio — In a wood-paneled office lined with books, sports memorabilia and framed posters (including John Belushi in “Animal House”), E. Gordon Gee, the president of Ohio State University, keeps a framed quotation that reads, “If you don’t like change, you’re going to like irrelevance even less.”

Mr. Gee, who is often identified with a big salary and spendthrift ways, says he has taken the quotation to heart, and he is now trying to persuade Ohio State’s vast bureaucracy, and the broader world of academia, to do the same.

At a time of diminished state funding for higher education and uncertain federal dollars, Mr. Gee says that public colleges and universities need to devise a new business model to pay for the costs of education, beyond sticking students with higher tuition and greater debt.

“The notion that universities can do business the very same way has to stop,” said Mr. Gee, who is also the chairman of a commission studying college attainment, including the impact of student debt.

College presidents across the country are confronting the same realization, trying to manage their institutions with fewer state dollars without sacrificing quality or all-important academic rankings. Tuition increases had been a relatively easy fix but now — with the balance of student debt topping $1 trillion and an increasing number of borrowers struggling to pay — some administrators acknowledge that they cannot keep putting the financial onus on students and their families.

Increasingly, they are looking for other ways to pay for education, stepping up private fund-raising, privatizing services, cutting staff, eliminating departments — even saving millions of dollars by standardizing things like expense forms.

And Wall Street is watching.

Moody’s Investors Service, in a report earlier this year, said it had a favorable outlook for the nation’s most elite private colleges and large state institutions, those with the “strongest market positions” that had multiple ways to generate revenue. Ohio State, for instance, received a stable outlook from Moody’s last fall, though the report cautioned about the school’s debt and reliance on its medical center for revenue.

But Moody’s issued a negative outlook for a majority of colleges and universities heavily dependent on tuition and state revenue.

“Tuition levels are at a tipping point,” Moody’s wrote, adding later, “We anticipate an ongoing bifurcation of student demand favoring the highest quality and most affordable higher education options.”

Colleges can be top-heavy with administrators and woefully inefficient, some critics say, and some have only recently taken a harder look at ways to streamline their operations.

“Schools are very good at adding new things, new programs,” said Sherideen S. Stoll, vice president for finance and administration at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. “We are not so good at looking at things we have been doing for 20 or 30 years and saying, ‘Should we be offering those academic programs?’ ”

At Bowling Green, 62 percent of graduates have debt that averages $31,515, the highest among Ohio public universities that publish the data. In addition to raising tuition, which has been limited by state-mandated caps, the university has laid off employees, encouraged early retirements, required unpaid furloughs and limited pay increases, Ms. Stoll said. The belt-tightening hasn’t yet reached the point that academic quality has suffered, she said, but Bowling Green may not be able to offer as much in the future.

“We’ve done everything and anything to try to operate much more efficiently,” she said.

The problems aren’t confined to public colleges. Administrators at some nonprofit private institutions said they too had come to realize they could not keep raising tuition and fees. Families have become more price-sensitive since the economic collapse and are seeking deeper discounts on the sticker price.

“We know the model is not sustainable,” said Lawrence T. Lesick, vice president for enrollment management at Ohio Northern University. “Schools are going to have to show the value proposition. Those that don’t aren’t going to be around.”

There is a dispute about why college costs have risen so much. Before the economic crisis, some critics argue, both public and private colleges participated in a costly “arms race” to provide better amenities to lure the best students and faculty: new dormitories with one student to a room, frequent sabbaticals for professors, upscale cafeteria food, expanded counseling services and gymnasiums that rival the fanciest health clubs in Manhattan.

Others say education is intrinsically expensive. Health care costs, for instance, have taken a toll, since colleges are labor-intensive. And the expense of keeping up with technology, like wireless Internet and new computers, is high. Here at Ohio State, where tuition has increased by nearly 60 percent since 2002, there is a gleaming new student union, climbing walls that can accommodate 50 students at a time and $2 billion in construction projects under way.

Mr. Gee’s compensation package this year, moreover, is worth about $2 million, and The Chronicle of Higher Education has called him the highest-paid public university president. The Dayton Daily News recently reported that Mr. Gee had billed Ohio State for $550,000 in travel in the last two years.

The travel expenses prompted some to question if Mr. Gee practices what he preaches.

“He’s very capable. He’s a very smart guy, and he’s engaging and all these things,” said Dale Butland, a spokesman for Innovation Ohio, a nonprofit policy research group. But he added, “Students and their parents who are struggling, not just with coming up with the money, but paying off the debt, I think there is a disconnect between what they are being asked to do and what they are seeing the leader of the university doing.”

Mr. Gee maintains that Ohio State is getting its money’s worth. On his watch, Ohio State has become a more prestigious university, he says, while remaining a relative bargain, even with fewer resources from the state. It now receives just 7 percent of its budget from the state.

Ohio State costs about $25,000 a year for in-state residents who live on campus. The average debt for graduates who borrow is $24,480.

A lanky 68-year-old who is known for his bow ties, horn-rimmed glasses and sometimes zany antics (he has shown up, unannounced, at 21st birthday parties for his students, which he finds on Facebook), Mr. Gee has had the top job at five universities, including twice at Ohio State. He returned to the Columbus campus in 2007 after stints at Brown and Vanderbilt. Mr. Gee acknowledges that college affordability and student debt are growing problems that university presidents long ignored. He said they now needed to address them quickly.

“We have not been as conscious about costs as we should be, and that has now come home to roost,” he said.

Like many other college presidents, Mr. Gee has set about trying to make Ohio State’s highly decentralized bureaucracy more efficient. He said he planned to find $1 billion in inefficient spending in the university’s $5 billion budget over the next five years and redirect the money toward priorities.

“We are like Noah’s Ark,” he said. “We do two of everything.”

The university saved $20 million simply by switching to common vendors for pens, copiers and overnight shipping; previously Ohio State’s 14 colleges chose their own. Creating a common expense report will save $75 million.

“When I got here, I asked to see their long-term financial model, and they brought me a paper for one year, and I said, ‘What?’ ” said Geoff Chatas, a former banker whom Mr. Gee hired in 2010 as chief financial officer. “Now we have a 15-year plan.”

Mr. Gee said he was considering selling off Ohio State’s airport and golf courses, and he might privatize campus parking, though faculty members are balking at the idea. Last year, Ohio State became the first public university to issue a 100-year bond, for $500 million.

He is also is trying to beef up Ohio State’s enrollment of out-of-state and international students, who bring in more tuition revenue and higher test scores. And, he is pressing donors for more money, a task in which he is particularly skilled.

At a ceremony to honor a $100 million donation from Leslie Wexner, the clothing magnate and Ohio State graduate, Mr. Gee choked back tears.

“Every time I get a lot of money I cry,” Mr. Gee told the crowd. “And I got a lot of tears left.”

NYTimes
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OK, first question I have is, WTF does a college need to have it's own airport & golf courses??? (please note the plural...)
You're not really winning for your side here.

PonyPotato · May 17, 2012

Ohio State has a program for training pilots,hence the airport. The golf courses are faculty, alumni, and donor things.. They still charge membership fees, I believe, but are largely networking locations.

The issue of privatizing parking on campus is a Big Issue here right now. We're switching over to semesters right now, largely in an attempt to save money in administration costs. I'm glad the university is forming a long term plan, but tuition here has increased 60% in the last 8 years, (I think it's 8) so my cost for grad school is ridiculously higher than it was at the same school during my undergraduate term.

Baraka_Guru · May 19, 2012

Some good points here. I agree in principle that education costs need to be kept low, as it is mostly cost alone that creates barriers to entry into post-secondary education. It is especially important in societies where the gap is widening between the well-to-do and the not-so-well-to-do, as these barriers will only serve as an infrastructure for a de facto caste system. Furthermore, it's a question of global competitiveness. The nations with the highest college-educated populations will be in much better positions to lead economically and politically.

Also, anyone who is interested in the specifics. The Quebec provincial government just passed emergency legislation instituting punitive fines for protesters of up to $5,000 for individuals and $125,000 for groups. As you may have guessed, this was like throwing gasoline on the fire. Now even Molotov cocktails are out.

"My view is that this legislation is part of the extreme reaction that this debate has provoked. Violent demonstrations provoke violent reactions."
—John H. Gomery, BCL, BA, QC, Canadian jurist (Ret.)

Hours after crackdown bill passes, Montreal protest erupts in violence | News | National Post
Quebec emergency law goes 'very far', ex-judge Gomery says - Politics - CBC News
Quebec student bill 'worst law' since War Measures Act: law professor - Winnipeg Free Press

cynthetiq · May 19, 2012

Schools aren't beholden to any kind of track record for dollars spent to dollars recovered for students. I'm saying that there is not correlation to the amount of money spent to the amount of money earned.

Many people where I grew up went to CSUN which is in the Cal State system instead of the UC system. Also there was a community college close to CSUN that many of the CS professors also taught the same courses and materials for 1/3 the cost.

Children are also taught to blue sky their future, which is a great thing. I do think that what is missing is the tempering of reality wherein taking out $100k in loans for a job that is going to pay you gross $40k/year is pretty folly.

I decided early on that it wasn't smart for me to take on student loan debt as a business management major because the return of investment of dollars did not make sense based on the potential return I had.

What I'm currently baffled with are parents today who are paying $20k for children in kindergarten and grade school. What's that mean for the cost of university? It has to be more than that right? I mean it has to have more value than the cost of kindergarten correct?

snowy · May 19, 2012

cynthetiq said: ↑

What I'm currently baffled with are parents today who are paying $20k for children in kindergarten and grade school. What's that mean for the cost of university? It has to be more than that right? I mean it has to have more value than the cost of kindergarten correct?
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Paying for a year of tuition and fees at the state university I went to is cheaper than paying for a year of childcare at the facility I work at. Part of it is just that childcare is expensive--we have a 1 to 4 caregiver/child ratio in the younger room.

I had an acquaintance freshman year of school that had just graduated from a Catholic private school in the Portland area (Jesuit). Her tuition for a year at Jesuit was way more than a year of tuition at state school. What's the point?

One anecdotal phenomenon I've seen--and perhaps others recently in school have experienced this as well--is that people who attended school before tuition skyrocketed don't comprehend that you can't just work your way through school anymore. It's not feasible. Debt is a fact of life unless you have really generous parents--and many people don't. I think this may be contributing to the disconnect we see between students protesting tuition and the older generations scratching their heads.

Even if you do two years of community college to make it more affordable, you eventually have to transfer to finish a 4-year degree. I've also seen a lot of people start at community college and languish there because they didn't want to take the plunge into 4-year school. I'm grateful that my local community college has a direct transfer program with my university--my husband, his brother, and all of his cousins have gone that route, and out of his generation, 3 people have now completed college degrees.

Baraka_Guru · May 19, 2012

snowy said: ↑

Even if you do two years of community college to make it more affordable, you eventually have to transfer to finish a 4-year degree. I've also seen a lot of people start at community college and languish there because they didn't want to take the plunge into 4-year school. I'm grateful that my local community college has a direct transfer program with my university--my husband, his brother, and all of his cousins have gone that route, and out of his generation, 3 people have now completed college degrees.
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I don't think I'm a rare case when I say that my parents could not afford to give me anything to earn a post-secondary education. That's actually one of the factors in determining a student's eligibility for low-interest loans via the federal and provincial governments to attend school. These programs are heavily used, and I assume it's because borrowing to attend college has become necessary due to costs that have increased far beyond inflation.

One could argue that students should then plan for their own education costs. I mean, I could have in theory. I held part-time jobs between the age of 14 and my graduation from university. However, I never received any education, tips, guidance, or encouragement regarding sound financial advice. Many who were raised in a working-class family may know what it's like to live in a spend rather than save environment. I never learned money management other than observing how my parents scrimp by through decisions to delay, do without, or buy ultra-cheap. How is that kind of thing supposed to help a kid realize he needs to put himself through school? I didn't even know I was going to get to college. I was one of the first in my extended family to do so (one cousin beat me by about a year or two). No one in my family talked about college. They were lucky to get high school diplomas. Not all of them did.

That said, when it came time, it was either borrow or don't go. I could have saved up, but I would have done so at a menial job (probably retail), and it would have taken forever. Am I better off having chosen the course I did? I would say yes. I haven't maximized my income by any stretch, but I'm doing something I love and getting paid reasonably well. I can't get the kind of job I have with just a high school diploma.

I would have loved to work part-time during school and full-time during summers and pay my way through school. I get the feeling this was totally possible back in the day. I did work part-time during school and full-time during summers all the way through a college diploma and a university degree, but that was to offset living costs. Loans help with living costs (you get more if you live on your own vs. with your parents), but they don't cover them.

I don't envy students today, as they're paying more than what I did, and I had a rough time of it. It will take me ten years, $300/month to pay off my student loans. That doesn't include the costs I offset while working through school or the credit card balances for costs exceeding my means at the time. (And I hardly lived the good life while in school. Little time and money for play, that's for sure. Toronto isn't cheap, even when you don't do anything.)

snowy · May 19, 2012

Baraka_Guru said: ↑

I don't think I'm a rare case when I say that my parents could not afford to give me anything to earn a post-secondary education. That's actually one of the factors in determining a student's eligibility for low-interest loans via the federal and provincial governments to attend school. These programs are heavily used, and I assume it's because borrowing to attend college has become necessary due to costs that have increased far beyond inflation.

One could argue that students should then plan for their own education costs. I mean, I could have in theory. I held part-time jobs between the age of 14 and my graduation from university. However, I never received any education, tips, guidance, or encouragement regarding sound financial advice. Many who were raised in a working-class family may know what it's like to live in a spend rather than save environment. I never learned money management other than observing how my parents scrimp by through decisions to delay, do without, or buy ultra-cheap. How is that kind of thing supposed to help a kid realize he needs to put himself through school? I didn't even know I was going to get to college. I was one of the first in my extended family to do so (one cousin beat me by about a year or two). No one in my family talked about college. They were lucky to get high school diplomas. Not all of them did.

That said, when it came time, it was either borrow or don't go. I could have saved up, but I would have done so at a menial job (probably retail), and it would have taken forever. Am I better off having chosen the course I did? I would say yes. I haven't maximized my income by any stretch, but I'm doing something I love and getting paid reasonably well. I can't get the kind of job I have with just a high school diploma.

I would have loved to work part-time during school and full-time during summers and pay my way through school. I get the feeling this was totally possible back in the day. I did work part-time during school and full-time during summers all the way through a college diploma and a university degree, but that was to offset living costs. Loans help with living costs (you get more if you live on your own vs. with your parents), but they don't cover them.

I don't envy students today, as they're paying more than what I did, and I had a rough time of it. It will take me ten years, $300/month to pay off my student loans. That doesn't include the costs I offset while working through school or the credit card balances for costs exceeding my means at the time. (And I hardly lived the good life while in school. Little time and money for play, that's for sure. Toronto isn't cheap, even when you don't do anything.)
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I hate to say it, Baraka_Guru, but I think you're a great illustration of some of the issues facing today's students and graduates.

cynthetiq · May 19, 2012

Back in 1987 was my first year of college, it was already $20,000 for my first year of private university up from the $8,000 for my college preparatory Catholic high school. I didn't want to go because I understood that community college for 2 year prerequisite general education was going to be a huge cost savings. My father insisted that "No son of his was going to a community college," and I went to this private school.

I ended up going back to community college, and languishing. Not because I wasn't driven to transfer to another school, just that the tech sector was starting to boom and I was faced with taking a history class at 2PM or making $500 for the afternoon consulting on networks or workstation builds. I could have theoretically worked my way through college to afford the 4 year uni costs, but I didn't think that was as valuable as me going out and putting my head down and actually working. I had already worked in major corporations so the only place a degree held me back and still does is the finance sector.

But the difference between myself and my friends is that out of the gate I didn't saddle myself with $75,000 in student loan debt.

If people aren't able to afford college costs, how are they about to afford regular school, middle school, and high school costs?

snowy · May 25, 2012

A nice graphic to supplement the conversation, illustrating the difference between sticker price and net price at colleges:

That said, there are a lot of people whose parents make too much money for them to be Pell eligible, but don't make enough money to fully pay for their child's college education. There are other factors that play into a family's ability to contribute to paying for college. Take my cousin--her dad makes a good salary, but she also has a developmentally disabled sister. On paper, their family contribution is higher than it should be, because the formula doesn't take into account the extra expenses generated by having a developmentally disabled sibling.

Baraka_Guru · May 25, 2012

Nice, snowy

I wanted to return here to talk more about the numbers. I know that education inflation is still rocketing along at more than 8% annually. That's up to four times faster than overall inflation.

The Quebec protest/student strike is in its 102nd day despite the recently passed draconian "Truncheon Law."

This isn't about tuition alone. This is about debt. This is about an imbalance between resources. This has more to do with OWS that a lot of people realize.

Jetée · May 25, 2012

And here is the topic to which I was looking to contribute to; came across this article in the last week, and thought it pertained greatly to the initial impetus of why the media is focusing its lense so intently on this issue.

- - -
"When President Obama spoke in the State of the Union of the need to send more Americans to college, it was in the context of economic competition with China, phrased as if we ought to produce graduates like steel. As the near-ubiquitous unpaid internship for credit (in which students pay tuition in order to work for free) replaces class time, the bourgeois trade school supplants the academy. Parents understandably worried about their children make sure they never forget about the importance of an attractive résumé. It was easier for students to believe a college education was priceless when it wasn’t bought and sold from every angle."

— Malcolm Harris, for n+1.

[Read of Interest: Education in the context of the economy]

rogue49 · May 25, 2012

Many "name" schools have special programs with smaller ones.

The method I did to save money, since I paid it all in cash over my time doing it.
Is that I first went to in-state community colleges.
I got all the basic course out of the way...
Signed up for the special TAG program, or connection program with the name school.
Got as much required and finished still at the community college,
Then I only had a half-year to finish my full degree at the name university.

Saved money.
It allowed me to play in the water a bit...decide what I wanted to do in truth (which time...a bit of waste...but worth it since its cheaper)
What worked, what didn't (including my own scholastic sins...)
The classes were smaller and more flexible
And I still got the degree to show off from the name school. (still "in-state" BTW...that's also a key to save)

Unless you've got a full ride
Why do it the hard, expensive way?

Baraka_Guru · May 25, 2012

The world is starting to take notice of the goings-on in Montreal and other parts of Quebec. Maybe this includes the rest of Canada.

Montreal Pots And Pans Video Of Protest Against Bill 78 Goes Viral

The Huffington Post Canada | By Michael Bolen

A video of protesters banging pots and pans on Quebec streets is going viral on social networks.

Posted on Friday afternoon, the beautiful black and white film shows protesters of all ages taking to the streets to protest the emergency law Bill 78. The Vimeo video quickly began showing up all over Twitter and Facebook.

People took up the percussive protest Thursday night in several towns and cities including Sorel, Longueuil, Chambly, Repentigny, Trois-Rivieres and even in Abitibi -- several hundred kilometres away from the hot spot of Montreal.

They were still loudest in Montreal, where a chorus of metallic clanks rang out in neighbourhoods around the city, spilling into the main demonstrations and sounding like aluminum symphonies.

The pots-and-pans protest has its roots in Chile, where people have used it for years as an effective, peaceful tool to express civil disobedience. The noisy cacerolazo tradition actually predates the Pinochet regime in Chile, but has endured there and spread to other countries as a method of showing popular defiance.

Thursday's protest in Montreal was immediately declared illegal by police, who said it violated a municipal bylaw because they hadn't been informed of the route. They allowed it to continue as long as it remained peaceful.

Usually the nightly street demonstrations, which have gone on for a month, have a couple of vigorous drummers to speed them along their route. At the very least, someone clangs a cow bell.

But in the last few days, the pots and pans protest -- dubbed the casseroles by observers -- have acted like an alarm clock for the regular evening march, sounding at 8 p.m. on the nose in advance of the march's start.

With files from The Canadian Press.
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Montreal Pots And Pans Video Of Protest Against Bill 78 Goes Viral

Jetée · May 26, 2012

Baraka_Guru said: ↑

The world is starting to take notice of the goings-on in Montreal and other parts of Quebec. Maybe this includes the rest of Canada.
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You are quite right.

Benoit Tardif is a great Montreal illustrator.

Here he’s capturing the casseroles - Every night at 8pm, Montreal neighbourhoods take to their balconies and streets, banging pots and pans in support of the student protests - which have gone on for over 100 days now. The Guardian is covering this pot-banging protest today also.

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