Food the service industry, "if you dont like it then..."

Am I being naive thinking there is a difference between gratuity and service charge?

Gratuity is from the French 'gratuit' - free (as in freely given), a service charge is what it is - a charge for service.

How can an optional gift can be made mandatory? I don't mean that a good server and their measly wages shouldn't be rewarded by the customer, but surely it should be optional unless a service charge is stipulated, (I worked in a 'posh' restaurant where the bills were mostly in the hundreds of pounds, and the tips were excellent - we made sure of that by giving top service - the customers were given a great experience rather than just roughage and/or calories).

I'm absolutely against gratuity charges and service charges, as I would be against gas, water, electricity, rent and other overhead charges being added to my bill, but quite happy to reward good service when I get it (I gave a 30% tip to the garage yesterday on a quick but messy £40 job).

Staff are as much as an overhead at McD's as they are anywhere else, I reckon it's 'bout time the penny pinching, low paying, downtreading restaurant owners like the one in the OP stopped thinking about their profits, more about their business's and paid a reasonable wage.

 

I can't speak to UK law, or to anyplace other than the establishments I worked at in college. One was "fine dining," the other a pizza parlor.

However, if you came into any of those places and made the demands you reference, Strange, my bosses would have told you to forget it. The Mad Mancunian who ran the pizza joint would have told you to "fook awf owtov 'ear" in fact. Depending upon when in the process your demands were made, Pete's responses would have gotten less polite and more North Of England from there, for a number of reasons.

1: In my State, at least, customers are not allowed into the kitchens of resterants due to-
A: Possible contamination of the food
B: Potential for accidents
Yes, there are laws against this that can get a place's licences yanked if violated.

2: No resteraunteur I know would allow customers in the kitchen even if it -were- legal, due to the risk of an accident or injury to the customer, with lawsuit to follow.

3: If you threatened to sue the owner for refusing to break the law or expose himself to litigation (which is what you would, at least in my area, be demanding) it would be the very height of asinine behavior, second only to bringing a Tavor to a bear-fight. I'm not sure, but since you would be attempting to coerce illegal acts, there could even be a convincing case made for bringing charges of Blackmail or Extortion against you, -especially- since you would be doing this for monetary gain.

4: If you threatened or attempted to leave without paying a stated, required fee (whether a gratuity, service charge, what have you) the owner would -certainly- be well within their rights to eject you from their establishment with orders not to return, and to have you arrested for Tresspassing if you -did- come back. Saw this one happen myself. A case could potentially be made for arrest on some flavour of Larceny as well if you made this demand after ordering and recieving your food, although that's quite a stretch.

5: And of course there's the fact that stiffing the waitress in the absence of poor service, even on a voluntary tip, is more than just rude. It's a good way to get truly shitty service from then on, and in the States it's seen as the height of boorish, crass, inconsiderate behavior. So much so, in fact, that a popular piece of dating advice over here is "Watch how your date treats waitstaff and bartenders. People who are abrasive, demanding, condescending and cheap are assholes who make shitty lovers/spouses/flings, because it demonstrates lack of empathy and habitual bad manners." I can't speak for British women, but in the US at least the kinds of stunts you're describing are a good way to spend lots of money on first dates, hand lotion, and porn. America women think that sort of behavior is shitty, and the only ones I've ever seen who -didn't- feel that way were rancid bitches.

And I promise you, Strange, that however you approached this it would be the -last- time you would -ever- be permitted to darken the door of either of the two places I worked. Demands to cut-out the server, demands to be allowed to break the law, demands to be allowed to expose the owner to lawsuits, and general-purpose dickishness over this kind of thing are a good way to be disinvited (forcefully if needed) from almost anyplace nicer than Burger King, and if you were thick enough to voice your opinion of the waitstaff and their job -especially- if you did it while sat at the table...oh brother. You truly do not want me to start listing the ways resteraunt staff can take revenge, Strange. Trust me on this one.

 

I am perfectly polite to people who serve me in a restaurant. I agree that someone who treats people in that position without respect is probably a dick.

But what is sad that for an American, the only way you think you can show respect if paying the person extra money.

I find it actually appalling that you think not paying some an extra £10 is rude. And that fact you hint that restaurant staff might spit in someone's food etc if they decline to make an extra payment... its basically blackmail, and as I said before just a horrible indictment on the service industry of America. (which would, of course, be a criminal act on their part)

 

Strange, it goes -way- beyond spitting in food. Both worse and more creative.

I've seen stiffers get four wrong orders in a row. I've seen them wait for an hour for an appetizer. Things get dropped, "lost," or "forgotten about." I've watched literally every single thing a stiffer wanted unaccountably run out of stock, and their table surrounded with every crying baby or bratty preschooler who came in the door. In less toney establishments they can find themselves being Shunned, Amish-style, to the point of having their shoes mopped, if their stiffing and disrespect went sufficiently far. The popular Bible-banger trick of "tipping" in the form of religious tracts is sometimes met with barrages of AC/DC, or by seating such people next to an obnoxiously affectionate gay couple.

And the point is, in the US, tipping is -not- "extra." It's how waitstaff make the bulk, sometimes the entireity, of their take-home pay- taxes eat their $2.15/hr wage before they ever see a cent. It's not a bonus, or a prize, it's how you pay for their labour which you discount as being worth mere pennies (this is the kind of disrespectful attitude which results in pepperoni unaccountably replaced by double anchovies with garlic, btw). If the service sucks you can refuse to pay, or pay less, but over here it's generally understood to be the height of rudeness to stiff waitstaff, and only marginally less asinine to make the kind of complaints and statements you have, -especially- if done publically.

None of which, of course, even touches upon the ridiculous threat of a lawsuit over not being allowed to serve onesself. If such a suit somehow -wasn't- thrown out as Frivolous (and bringing a frivolous or harassing lawsuit -is- a crime in some States) or laughed right out of court, the person bringing such a "complaint" before the Court would be an absolute laughingstock, worse than the woman who sued McDonalds because she burned herself, worse than the Judge who sued his dry-cleaner for $60,000,000 over a lost pair of trousers. Every radio host and standup comic in the country would have a field day, Leno and Letterman would milk it for -years-. "Cheapskate" and "piker" would suddenly be said to have, as their dictionary definition or Wikipedia illustration, a portrait of the person making such a complaint.

To paraphrase Octavian- "You would become a figure of fun. The Plebes would mock you in the streets and your soldiers in their cups."

And that is, in my opinion, -exactly- as it should be. A person who cannot or will not pay for the services of waitstaff should eat at Burger King or stay home.

 

Well, I think you have given us all a perfect advertisement of why not to eat in the restaurant you work in.

The arrogance, contempt, bitterness and disrespect to customers which you make clear that you and your colleagues feel is why so many places go out of business. It's a shame, because most staff can give terrible customer service or good customer service, depending on the culture that is set in a business.

When the business has a culture which says that staff are paid next to nothing, and can only make a living from extra payments from customers who will be bullied, harassed, mis-treated and sneered at unless they comply with "voluntary" extra payments to the food carriers... business like that tend to fail, and tend to make their employees do a very bad job.

(btw - the woman who sued McDonalds when she burned herself had every right to... she spilled near boiling coffee on her lap and when she stumbled into the restaurant to ask for access to cold water the staff refused her... leading to painful burns. They werent sued because they her hot coffee, but because they unreasonably refused to help somebody who had burned themselves)

 

Actually, I haven't worked at that place in about five years. It is, however, celebrating its' 7th year of business. Most of the waitstaff and -all- of the management have worked there for 2+ years, which is rare to the point of being unheard of in a College-town pizza joint. Most of the customers, myself included, are regulars. And all this in a town and location where the average run for a new resterant is less than 6mo. The waitstaff are brilliant, because that's how they make their money- by being good enough at their jobs to earn tips above and beyond the 15% baseline. I've watched waitresses make $200 in a night if they were good at their job, and keep doing that job for three years in the same establishment.

You wanna see -shitty- service? You wanna see a resteraunt on a fast train to failure? Eat at a place where the waitstaff "pools" their tips and split the kitty every night. The crappy servers see no need to improve (and therefore don't) because they're getting paid the same amount anyway, and the good servers don't see any reason to expend more than a modicum of effort for precisely the same reason -plus- the fact that they're losing a big chunk of their hard-earned income to the marginally useful. Making matters worse, the Management finds it difficult-to-impossible to attract new talent (especially employees with any chops or brains) because their establishment quickly becomes known for cheating the hard workers and the competent in order to pay the lazy, stupid, or lackadaisical- all of which means that before long the competent ones leave only to be replaced by more numpties who do -not- leave because why should they? Kinda like Communism, that.

As for arrogance- arrogance is referring to waitstaff as "food carriers" and their work as being worth "mere pence." THAT's arrogant. You've obviously never done that work or known anyone who has, and yet in typical Strange Famous fashion claim to know all about it. "Bitterness" is threatening a potentially ruinous lawsuit over not being allowed to run somebody else's business as you see fit in order to save ten gorram quid. "Disrespect" is disparaging somebody who spends 6-10 hours per day on their feet, lifting heavy things, keeping tabs on multiple tables, running around like a chicken with its' head shot off for hours at a time, in order to serve a person who claims their effort is near-worthless. It all adds up to a whiny, passive-aggressive, backhanded snobbery poorly disguised as frugality and insultingly dished out by someone who claims to be a working-class lad who "always stands with the 99%." You don't "stand with the 99%," Strange- in this case you insult them, disparage their work, and actively look for ways to avoid paying them. I certainly am glad I've known Brits other than, and prior to, you. Otherwise I might be tempted into some truly unfortunate stereotyping.

 

And I find it interesting that Cynthetiq likes this. So we know at least two people have this view. Maybe we are getting to truth now. Lets distill the key points

If you do not pay a sufficient tip (and we arenot talking about a service charge included in the bill, but an additional voluntary payment on that) the waiting staff will:

1 - deliberately drop your food on the floor before serving you.
2 - you will be deliberately given the wrong order
3 - you will be made to wait an hour before your food is brought to you
4 - you will be refused the meal you want to order
5 - you will deliberately be seated next to people who will annoy you

And if you dont like it, go to Burger King, because this is what every restaurant is like, and this is the typical manner serving staff treat customers.

So Cynthetiq... if you ran a business, these are the type of people you would want to represent you?

So Borla, maybe now I understand why you have to tip 25% If you like to dine out, is it necessary to pay this bribe to avoid the above?

Cinnamon, is this how its like in the place you work also?

_

The are two strands here. One is the argument as to whether this is a true representation of service in America. I am not American, so i cant argue against you on that. If enough people say this is what it is like, then I believe you.

But the second strand, and the one I am confident on, is that this is a horrible way to run businesses. If I ran a place this way, I personally would be ashamed. And if I was a potential customer, and I understood from the start if you dont tip at least 20%, the people will go out of their way to make sure you have a bad experience without overstepping the mark of criminality... I wouldnt be a customer twice.

 

Strange, let me ask you a question-

If somebody demanded that you work for them, and then refused after the fact to pay what was understood to be the industry standard (assuming the work was satisfactory), would -you- want to work for that person? Would -you- give them your best efforts? If they disparaged your work or paid you pennies or not at all, would -you- not find a way to ensure they left and did not return so that someone who respected you and paid for your labours could have that seat they were warming?

As for your confidence in your knowledge of how to run a resteraunt...I think I'll file that one right alongside your "common sense knowledge" regarding bears, dogs, women, Catholic clerical vows, homosexuality, fitness, fighting and firearms. As with the foregoing subjects, I'll stick with my own experiences in the field and the opinions of those who know what they're talking about by virtue of -their- experiences, rather than the pontifications of a person so obviously lacking in same.

 

I think we've come to the end of the line here of sorts. Some, like Strange, prefer to eat where there is no tip required or perhaps not expected. Other prefer to eat in restaurants where they have a "dining experience." I fail to see the problem or the need for extended debate. Both types restaurants are readily available. Don't want to tip or pay a service charge then eat at a buffet or fast food. Want more service? Eat at a restaurant with a higher level of service. I don't see a problem unless ones enters a finer restaurant then balks at paying the tip. If you do I would not suggest you do twice. Wait staff, as Borla as pointed out, remember who tips and who does not. Tip well regularly? Great service and possible freebies. Don't tip or tip really poorly? You're not likely going to know about or enjoy your freebies. I worked in restaurants prior to joining the military, was a major reason I joined. I've seen people get great service and I've seen people get served food that been on the floor, spit in and in one case the server wiped her ass with a guys toast before serving it to him. I think that last case had more to do with the customer being Mr. Grabby but he may also have been a poor tipper.

I know when I dine out I sometimes, not always but sometimes, enjoy a higher level of service. There are about 4-5 restaurants in Merida where they know me by name and will not only give me a good table, often having me wait while they make one a good one available or seat me ahead of others who are waiting for a table. But they will go out of their way to make sure I'm satisfied with my experience. I assume they do this because they know I usually tip in the 25-30% range. If I don't feel like spending this kind of money for service I eat at lower level establishments.

It's really very simple. Why make it difficult?
--- merged: May 6, 2012 5:42 PM ---
I might actually enjoy this place-




Depending on my mood. If I ate there and received decent service I'd almost certainly would leave a tip. About the only places I don't tip are fast food and buffets.

 

Of all the pics that were in the options, this looks like the one I would enjoy the most too.

 

Considering London the standard for uk is like considering new York a guide for what it's like in Texas...

So like I said... Nobody tips in pubs (you should buy the barmaid a drink if you're trying to chat her up though) and the standard restaurants is 10% but you can tip more if you like and if you don't tip at all it's considered offensive. It's fairly common to tell a taxi driver to keep the change but not to deliberately tip on a set ratio.

Try to remember these ettiquette guides are nearly always written by people in the industry who have a vested interest

Oh and the waiting staff who can make 200 bucks a night by "really great service" come on let's be real... They make that through flirting and being nice looking. 20 something boys or girls acting flirty with customers who for reasons of age or shyness or looks aren't used to the positive attention and who think "oh what a nice girl/lad" and leave a big tip.

 

Actually, Strange, the young lady who made that money was average-looking at best. She made bank by being extremely prompt, always keeping drinks filled, being very informed about the products and therefore able to answer questions and make recommendations, etc. This girl was about as flirtatious as a Saracen APC, but she knew her job and did it exceptionally well. -That's- why she cleared $200 on a good night- because she was a lot more than a "food carrier." She could help a person accommodate potentially deadly allergies, suggest new and innovative dishes which the customer had never tried but which she believed based upon prior experience they'd enjoy (and usually guess rightly, no small feat), and manage 8-12 tables without error. She remembered people by face, name, allergies, favorite dish/toppings/beer, amd sometimes even preferred seating. Believe it or not, people -are- willing to pay for that kind of knowledgeable, premium, personalised service, even in a little University town. I did then and still do now. The current waitress at this place knows what I like and how I like it, and makes sure I get it that way. To me, that's worth $5-10 at least, depending on how much I spend. If I drop $40 on food and drink, she can expect at least $7-10 from me and usually more, because she bloody well earned it. Multiply that by 15-25 tables per night, which on a busy evening was easily doable, and $200 is not hard to get to.

And frankly, she'd be insulted by your statement that she makes her money based upon good looks and flirtation with socially-awkward or hormone-driven customers as opposed to doing good work. Believe it or not, not everyone treats or thinks of women as incompetent, weak, incapable window-dressing who can only make money by flirting or looking pretty. Some people even appreciate the hard work waitstaff do, and compensate them accordingly- no matter how they look. This is just another example of your infamous backhanded, lace-curtain, women-as-pure-but-incompetent sexism, and frankly speaking any of those strong, capable, professional women would eat you alive for speaking of or treating them in such a way. -You- may tip based on such things, but many (I think most) people do -not-, and the suggestion that this is the way such money gets made is insulting. It borders perilously upon suggesting that the person is prostituting themselves or "leading the customer on." I am also offended by your implied suggestion that -I- tip/tipped them (and/or other waitstaff) well because of this- I assure you, Sirrah, I did and do not. I tip based upon proper service, not good looks or flirtation.

I submit that you, Strange, are talking out of your ass.