Virtues: what do you value?

You seem to have understood well enough, I suppose. I would describe what you are saying as proportionality/discretion because, after all, violence is still an option. I just don't think that a mode of action that includes the possibility of resorting to violence, even near the bottom of the list (right above capitulation), can be called 'non-violent'.

I see non-violence as something more than just avoiding violence where prudent - but something that could be a legitimate handicap when you have to deal with someone willing to do anything to get what they want.

That may well be what the dictionary says, but in some of the PC-obsessed circles I interact with open-mindedness has become a sort of buzzword for the idea that all viewpoints are equally welcome and valid, a kind of absurd relativism. You could call it the result of a couple million 'unique snowflakes' hitting their early 20s and deciding they don't like to be told that they're full of shit.

Perhaps it would be helpful to say which one we're talking about - I think 9er means what I said here.

 

You are correct that we are all liars. We tell lies big and small. I do believe self-delusion is the worst kind of lie.
Sure, 'total' honesty might lose you some friends, your lover, your job. At this point though I'd rather be totally direct with people than to tell lies, white or otherwise. Context is really important (the when, where, how you tell) and one can be polite--that never hurts. Many times in my life I've just blurted the truth and have paid a price. I'm not a bullshitter. I don't do it well so I don't even try. I have no friends to speak of and I'm self-employed. So I strive to tell the unvarnished truth, consequences be damned.
And fuck yeah, I'd rather you just tell me the truth than say something pretty. I cannot stand ass-kissers.

 

I agree, but it is still called 'open-mindedness'.

 

But that's my point: We're all bullshitters.

Because we want to keep our relationships, keep our jobs, avoid dealing with personal issues, avoid confrontation, get laid, get rich, etc.

Do we really need examples? Men lie about to their wives about the weight they've gained. Women fib about having orgasms. We lie to our friends about how much fun we had at their boring-ass baby shower or their painfully annoying relatives at a BBQ party. Your boss tells tall tales about future projects for you and then you get put on the shelf with no job for six months. You bullshit to your boss about how much time it took to do something because it's what he expects. Your kids lie to you about doing drugs. Resumes/CVs are sesquipedalian fib sheets and everybody knows it. Everybody from the President of the United States to the scumbags on Maury lie their faces off on national television. That's the game of life, right?

At no point would Real Honesty (TM) help anything. All it does is sidetrack shit. Hurt feelings. Waste time. All it does is make more work for us.

Like I said, we're all liars. I think the worst kind are those that think they're more honest than the rest of us. You're just being delusional.

I like my job. I love my girlfriend. I've lied to both of them, always little shit. I'm loyal to the company. I'm loyal to my girlfriend.

The only time we're really honest is when we admit we're liars.

...

So, yeah, I'm not really going anywhere with this, I just think "open-minded" and "honest" are way nebulous terms used by people without considering the actual definition. All of the things mentioned in this thread are fluffy clouds of goodness, but these ideas are extra ethereal.

And maybe I'm just turned off by those two words because of my experience with online dating.

*rimshot*

 

Zing!
Nope, the worst kind are those that couch their 'truth' in generalities instead of just calling a spade a spade.
I have plenty of faults and shortcomings. Lying to other people ain't one of them. I have to work at being honest with myself. Every day.

 

Yeah, probably. I think that's an important concept in a discussion like this.

Now that's a virtue. Every day, no days off.

 

C'mon now, I'm not that dense.

I'm just trying to call people out on their tired buzzwords.

It's obvious that virtues can't be absolutes because the human is invariably a flawed creature.

 

Fun film. A disproportionate number of great comedians come from Canada which has often made me wonder...A lot of comedy is about the inappropriateness of blurting out 'the truth'. We laugh because we are shocked.

It is a social Tourette's, well put.
I say nothing if I truly need to rather than 'telling the truth.' But to whom, where, why, you are telling (or not telling) is really crucial.

 

Back to the original question...the virtues I value are:

Compassion
Empathy
Patience
Personal accountability

 

This is difficult. I think about virtues I admire and realize that I rarely see them hanging out on their own. Honesty and forthrightness, for example, always seems joined at the hip with some non-virtue I don't admire, like moral arrogance. I think I've become overly-cynical about humans, myself included. No matter how hard I try, I can't accept the virtuous qualities of others at face value knowing that they are swimming in a flawed and fallible human being soup chock full of ulterior motives, personal demons and selfish motivations.

I'm no exception.

I could easily regard myself as the humble peace-maker. Sounds lovely but the truth is I hate confrontations (the live and in person ones - for some reason I'm not bothered with them here) They make me uncomfortable (for a variety of reasons I am fully aware of) so I immediately seek to put out the fire, for my own sake. I'm very good at resolving conflicts between others, which is a benefit, but my motivations for doing so are usually less than honorable.

I also admire open-mindedness but know for a fact that no one is truly and completely open-minded about everything or that anyone who shows compassion today won't harbor some personal motivation for acting compassionately or won't revel in a bit of schadenfreude tomorrow.

Virtues are pure ideals that resemble our efforts to emulate them, but when I look at those efforts I imagine the very complicated web they're caught in.

Still, it's good I suppose, to see some positives within ourselves and in others to balance out the negatives.

fair-mindedness
consideration for others
self-awareness
adaptability to change

 

I first thought the OP meant what virtues do we look for in a politician, and laughed so hard I about choked on my coffee. Silly me. I thought of a card I saw yesterday, "Choosing which politician to vote for is like deciding which STD would be just right for me."

Things I value,
"fluffy clouds of goodness" I like that term, thank you plan9.
Kindness
Compassion
Patience
Responsibility
Ability to do something for yourself.

 

Wanton desire to learn and evolve - curiosity on steroids
Loyalty - ref SG1 "We don't leave anybody behind."
Courage/Perseverence
Dexterity/Creativity

 

I value truth and honesty in myself
I have compassion and kindness
I expect loyalty and understanding
I’m at a point where I want courage, need courage.
I can’t stay in this relationship much longer, I was being honest when I told my sister it is over with him.
I could not believe she said “You have been with him all your life, you need to finish it out with him.”
I like the "fluffy clouds of goodness".

 

Sad amazement at your sister's words
Not trying to start discussion here ... just couldn't hold back immediate brief comment.

 

I feel the same way as Zen, Freetofly. Just because your sister feels this way about such things does not mean that you should. Is loyalty and "sticking it out" considered virtuous if it stems from a fear of changing one's circumstances? I don't think it is.

Courage summoned up to make changes necessary for your own health and well-being is the greater virtue, in this instance.

It was difficult but I finally did it and am so glad I did.