Trayvon Martin.

I think that, in day-to-day life in an advanced country like the USA, fear strong enough to make someone want to carry a gun IS irrational.

Letting these people do it and telling them that they can shoot the people they are afraid of (just so long as their fear reaches a certain level) is even more irrational.

 

SYG, as I see it, is the insult to injury law. The injury laws being the right to carry a concealed weapon where requirements and regulations are lax enough to allow someone like George Zimmerman to retain a permit in light of questionable behavior.

Proclaiming himself leader of a Neighborhood Watch in a neighborhood which has no formal or recognized watch program.
Disorderly conduct resulting in an arrest.
A protection order filed against him over accusations of domestic abuse.
50 calls he made to the Sanford PD (since Jan 2011) reporting suspicious behavior in his community.
Mr. Zimmerman's documented threats and harassment of other residents in his neighborhood.

The right to carry a concealed weapon should, in my opinion, stem from a justifiable need to do so. I understand that it's not a requirement in many states and none of George Zimmerman's behaviors prevent him from getting or retaining his concealed carry permit according to Florida's requirements.

I see this as the bigger problem. It's far too easy for some citizens, who may pose a threat to society, as evidenced by their red flag behaviors, to keep below the radar and keep themselves armed in public. I understand fully the notion of innocent until proven guilty but carrying a concealed weapon is not a right, it's a privilege and in a situation where it can be deemed that this privilege has any potential, at all, for being abused, it should be remanded.

But of course, the NRA frowns on such measures and fights for less restriction and scrutiny, not more.

 

I think Al Pacino says it best:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BofddwtPBPw

 

Police officers carry guns in there day-to-day lives. Why couldn't you think of circumstances where a "normal" person would want to do the same?

In my previous post I should have also included concerns about people with no fear.

Given what we know concerning the Trayvon homicide, a person with normal fear most likely would have listened to the 911 operator when told not to pursue Trayvon. A person with normal fear most likely would not have exited his vehicle to confront a perceived threat. All the way to the point of perhaps a person with normal fear would not have become a self-appointed security force. Hindsight is 20/20, but given what we know now, Zimmerman was a "walking time-bomb" - given the frequency of his 911 calls, his past behaviors, and a permit to carry a loaded weapon - if someone could have put the pieces together perhaps something could have been done. I have no problem with gun control - and just because someone got a conceal carry permit, in my opinion does not entitle them to keep it. I am not even opposed to physiological testing for people to buy guns. Zimmerman was on a mission. In 2012, I think there was efficient ways for us to filter these people. And, perhaps the paradox is that until that is done, people like me will continue to fight for gun ownership rights.

Finally, to your point in the above statement. No one tells anyone they can shoot people, everything I have been told is the opposite - do everything possible to avoid even shooting your gun unless it is in a controlled setting and certainly not people. In fact part of the training is instilling fear into the heads of gun owners. In the classroom portion of gun safety training, the majority of what is discussed are the negative consequences of gun ownership and how to avoid those. Including the presumption of guilt if a gun is fired, even in claimed self-defense. There is also discussion about the risks of a gun owners gun being used against them. Very few people actually have the capability to use a gun properly in a stressful situation. If the point is that Zimmerman was not qualified, I won't argue, just don't tell me - I am not qualified - that I will argue.

 

They don't in my country.

No, I can't think of circumstances where they should do so (though I can see that some would WANT to). Is it because there are so many scared, irrational people walking around with guns who might have a mental hair-trigger?

I have spent plenty of time in your country. It does worry me that people are wandering around armed, especially when I see how many stupid people are out there. However, I've never wanted to add to the problem.

To my mind, guns are a tool. In some jobs, they are required. As a kid, we had some in the house - but we lived in a war zone at the time. I've also had access to them to kill vermin and for hunting.

In peacetime? In a civilian setting (carried by the general population)? Not in a civilised society, imo.

 

Has anyone in this thread said that you should not have the right to carry a concealed weapon? Are we talking about responsible gun owners?

No. We are talking about the gamble some states are willing to take in allowing anyone who meets a minimum of criteria to carry a gun on their person, and then, going a step further by allowing them to be the judge of when a threat is grave enough to use it.

Informing some people of the proper usage and negative consequences and expecting that to be sufficient to prevent such consequences is like giving some children a box of chocolates, asking them to not to eat half the box in one sitting, and expecting them them not to gorge themselves when you leave the room.

I don't agree that you need to carry a handgun on you, Ace, but would not attempt to see it taken from you, personally. However, in the absence of much stricter controls, I would fully support legislation that would deprive you and other concealed carry owners and advocates the privilege, if it would serve to protect society from another George Zimmerman.

 

​

Then very few people should have concealed carry permits. No brainer.​

 

Checkmate.

 

Seems to me that some are blaming SYG laws, some implicit message that gun owners can shoot people simply on the perception of a threat, and that it is unreasonable to feel the need to have and carry a gun. So, I would say, yes.

SYG is not a new legal concept. There have always been circumstances when a person could claim SYG in a gun related self-defense claim, to name a couple, kidnapping and rape. Florida's law expanded when and where it can be applicable.

Unless you can make guns disappear from existence, people will debate you on the above point to eternity. Laws have been enacted in many places severely restricting gun ownership or the right to carry, and those laws have not protected people from gun crime.
--- merged: Mar 25, 2012 at 7:31 PM ---

I think very few do. And of those who do exercise the right to conceal and carry, fewer do 24/7. Personally I can count on one hand the number of times I have carried a concealed loaded gun.

If I remember you are from the NC area, and if you ever spent time in the Blue Ridge Mountain area and saw the movie Deliverance you may appreciate the humor in a bumper sticker I saw recently - "Paddle Faster I hear banjo music". I would rather paddle normally and carry a gun.

 

Speaking for myself, I'm not blaming the SYG laws for anything other than being the law that allowed George Zimmerman to walk away. You can hem and haw all you like about procedure, but before the law came along that enabled the police to let him go he would have been taken in. He's still free, by the way.

I can only go back to my previous observations, that have not been addressed by any gun rights supporters, I might add, that these laws are carved out to protect a subset of the American public at the possible expense of anyone who happens to be in the way. Compounded by the fact that the states are handing out concealed weapons permits to people who aren't qualified to use them. Yet, these are good, healthy laws that we shouldn't think about. Don't think about it and it won't bother you. Until someone with else with enough media 'sexiness' to make the international information mainstream dies for no reason whatsoever.
--- merged: Mar 25, 2012 at 7:42 PM ---

Parents are living in Asheville, NC. Liberal enclave in the midst of the rest of the rest of NC. They don't own any guns. The only friend of theirs who has one uses it to shoot at critters that come around her chickens.

I live in in Florida. About 10 miles down the highway from Sanford.

 

You do not know that.

Remember this?



Oh, if not for this tape...

Oh, and even with the tape initially these officers who claimed they were under perceived threat were not convicted of any crime.

Laws and law enforcement can be bastardized. Any attempted connections with SYG in the Trayvon murder case is is wrong, in my opinion - it is not a legitimate defense.

Also, clarifying ''few have conceal carry" is on a percentage basis, I know the numbers have increased dramatically lately.

 

While still heinous, this is different. Those were cops, not civilians.

What is the aim? To even things out?

I don't see any argument coming from you that is other than, 'you think this is bad...'

It's a failure. And it's a failure because you can't convince someone who sees no use for guns in their life to see the necessity of broadening protections for those that do. And what's more, you are functionally unable to even discuss flaws or compromise in the laws because those conditioned in the gun lobby are so hardwired to reject anything, outright, that conflicts with the philosophy of 'guns good.' Fuck, I don't care if you think they're good or not. If you want to carry them in my neighborhood or in the vicinity of my children, you best as fuck know how to use them in a crisis. Because once you've fired, it's too late to debate whether it was prudent or not. I object outright to the idea of, 'more guns on the street, oh yeah, the justice system will sort it all out in the end.'

 

Check out the initial police report:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Zimmerman's lawyer is claiming he had a broken nose; that remains to be seen, but the plot thickens.

 

yeah there's an eyewitness saying he was underneath trayvon as well. this didnt stop the black panthers from issuing a 10k bounty bounty on the shooter though.

 

I admit bias.... BUT I see the GOP making this FAR FAR more racial than it is. They are playing off Obama's being black and saying what just about anyone in authority would, "This could have been my son. My son could have looked and dressed like that."

All of a sudden because it's a black kid and a black president "Why that was a racist statement, who is he to say that I could have adopted him and he wouldn't have looked like me." SAID TODAY BY MR. RACISM, HIMSELF, GLENN BECK.

Rush today was talking about toning it down and getting over it until all facts are out. Yet, he continued talking about how President Obama's statements make him a RACIST.

If Jeb or W had said the same thing while in office, but the victim was white, (Jeb was a Governor of Fla., this happened in Fla. so it is hypothetically possible Jeb would have said something if a similar action occurred while he was in office), one could argue they were racist. If the victim had been Trayvon and neither Bush said ANYTHING then one could argue they were racist for ignoring it. AND the same people calling Obama racist for saying what he said, a racist for saying it, would be defending the Bushes, saying "Hell no they aren't racists, they are just saying what ANYONE would or could say."

So why is the GOP making such a big deal out of what Obama said on the subject?


Ahhhh the GOP only has the race issue to run on in November.... Gotcha
--- merged: Mar 26, 2012 at 2:28 PM ---

WTF... are you going to do if someone crazy person is chasing you for some distance?

The fact remains Zimmerman was TOLD BY THE 9-1-1 OPERATOR (WHICH ARE THE AUTHORITIES) TO STOP AND DESIST CHASING HIM.

ZIMMERMAN OBVIOUSLY STOPPED LISTENING BY REPEATING, "THEY ALWAYS GET AWAY."

DO THOSE FACTS NOT MEAN ANYTHING IN SHALLOW ASSED MINDS THAT BELIEVE ZIMMERMAN SHOULD GET OFF?

 

I admit I have not heard the tapes myself--did the 911 operator actually tell him to *stop* following him, or that it was unnecessary to follow him? There have been some reports of the latter.
--- merged: Mar 26, 2012 at 2:40 PM ---
Well here's the recording:



Looks like the actual words were something along the lines of:
Operator: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yea."
Operator: "You don't have to do that."

 

relax, i just think we should take thngs one step at a time instead of jumping to a guilty verdict before he has even been arrested.

 

I was responding to your point that if not for SYG, Zimmerman would have been arrested. The King situation is an example of what a corrupt police force can do at a crime scene and then create a story to fit what they want to report. If not for the video tape, we would have never known the truth, and the truth would have faded into obscurity. The same could have happened with Trayvon and I suspect the police force simply saw Trayvon as a typical young black thug that no one would care about - they did not even make reasonable attempts to contact or find his family.
--- merged: Mar 26, 2012 at 5:25 PM ---

I read the police reports previously, and read them again - I understand that initial police reports can be sketchy, but they did not mention reviewing his conceal/carry permit. Did he actually have one?

Another cause of action against Zimmerman is that he was acting as armed security, which requires a license. It requires extensive training. Neighborhood watch groups have very narrowly defined responsibilities. There have been reports that people in the community knew he was engaged in neighborhood watch activities and knew he did it while armed.

Even as we sit here today, there can be various causes for an arrest - if for no other reason they can do it to calm the situation. Arrest Zimmerman, let him post bail, and let the process begin. Now with activist groups involved in bounties and bounty hunting, this can get out of control real fast.