Cars vs Bicycles vs Pedestrians

And car often beats car, too.

Cyclists aren't some monolithic group that exists solely to annoy drivers. And, they're human beings who have just as much a right to exist on the roads as you do, even when they are breaking traffic laws.

Everybody breaks traffic laws. I drive and bicycle and, anecdotally speaking, by raw counts, drivers are by far the worse offenders when it comes to casual lawbreaking. Everywhere I drive, 90% of the people are going above the speed limit if traffic allows. I understand being annoyed by cyclists who break traffic laws in dangerous ways. They annoy me too. So do drivers who break laws in dangerous ways. What I don't understand is why people get all bent out of shape when cyclists break traffic laws in responsible ways. I know how to safely run a red light in both my car and on my bicycle, just like I know how to safely exceed the speed limit, turn on red where prohibited, make U-turns where prohibited.

I think that most bicycle vs. driver animosity could be eliminated if both cyclists and drivers decided to stop acting like they're the most imported person on the road.

 

I think the video of the three-way street, posted earlier in the thread, shows exactly what BVH is talking about.

UnoriginalContent, go back and watch it (again if you have to). It's all three modes of transport -- bikes, cars and pedestrians -- that are breaking the laws and endangering others. We all know this to be true. We have all, if we are honest with ourselves, seen this sort of thing (or even done them ourselves).

To single out cyclists is, frankly, myopic.

Again, to drivers that want less traffic, the best solution is fewer cars sharing the roads. The best way to achieve that is to have cities with great public transit that are bike and pedestrian friendly. In some cases, this will also mean, making it more expensive to drive a car. Singapore, for example, has very good public transit and taxis are relatively inexpensive. ALL vehicles must have a transponder installed that will charge tolls, deducted from a cash card in the transponder. The tolls are applicable during certain hours on high volume roads. and in the core. On top of this, ALL car owners must pay for a Certificate of Entitlement, which is valued, around 100% of the price of the car. Owning a car here, is costly.

 

I totally admit to driving and biking like an asshole. I also know that there are times where I just seem to be driving or riding like an asshole to the untrained eye.

 

I live near a make-believe big city that is supposedly rated one of the best for bicycle use. While automobile drivers are certainly guilty of law breaking, I have never seen the sheer disregard of traffic laws that are exhibited by the bicyclists of this area. Bicycling the wrong way down a one-way road? Sure. Bicycling on the road, then the sidewalk, then the road, then crossing against opposing lanes of traffic at whim for better sidewalk choice? Sure. Not stopping for stop signs? Sure. Running red lights? Sure. Does this happen with cars? All but the sidewalk-hopping, but not nearly as often as I see a bicyclist do it.

 

Would cars do it as frequently if it was as easy to do as it is on a bicycle? You bet they would!

 

Maybe, but it's not, so they won't. How does this apply to the argument?

 

It applies directly to the point that each of us in our various roles as pedestrians, cyclists and drivers... break the laws and the rules.

When driving, have you ever:
Ever exceeded the speed limit?
Made an illegal U-turn?
Changed lanes without signalling?
Ran a red light/stop sign?
Made a rolling stop?

As a pedestrian have you ever:
Jaywalked?

Even Mother Theresa broke the rules when driving.

So yes, there are issues with cyclists but I think it better put that there are issues, in general, with people following the rules. It doesn't make it right, it just puts the vitriol coming from some self-identified drivers into perspective.

I think you might also spend some time looking for those who are not breaking the rules. You don't see them for the same reason you don't see all the cars and pedestrians not breaking the rules... they don't stand out.

 

So it seems like you don't really care about the law breaking or the unsafe maneuvers, just the frequency? I don't know. That kind of sounds fishy to me.

I think that your problem isn't with lawbreaking, but with the occasional idiot. So why do you frame it in terms of lawbreaking? I've seen cyclists do ridiculous things. I've also see drivers to ridiculous things: u-turns without looking both ways; waiting at a green turn arrow until the light turns yellow just to punk the rest of the cars waiting to turn. It would be dumb to attribute these types of behaviors to all drivers, or even a majority of drivers. It would also be ridiculous for me to use these instances as an excuse to go on a rant about drivers in general.

With respect to law-abiding, there is fundamentally no difference between the type of person who rides a bicycle and the type of person who drives a car. Aside from the uber-conformists, they will both typically only follow all laws when a cop is present. When a cop is not present, they will likely only follow the laws that they think make sense, and they won't follow them because they're the law, they'll follow them because they make sense. Otherwise, considerations such as personal safety, stress, sense of immediacy dominate the decision making process. Regardless of vehicle, the selfish and the thoughtless will usually do what they want with little regard for other people.

I think the whole car vs. bike mentality is a pointless waste of mental energy. Whether it's being espoused by a cyclist or a driver, I think it comes about more as a rationalization for other, less obvious issues. Traffic usually sucks. There's so much waiting. And shitty radio. It's stressful and stress finds its way to the surface however it can. Sometimes, it manifests as undeserved animosity towards our fellow human beings. So whether I'm on my bicycle or in my car, I can have people flip the fuck out on me for doing completely legal, completely predictable things. They flip out because they don't like being in traffic and somehow I've made myself a target for the outlet of their displeasure.

 

I know the thread is about bicyclists, but as a pedestrian, this pisses me off. The heaviest vehicle does not have the right of way. This weekend, I tried to cross a street with my 3 year-old at a cross walk. There was no stop sign for the crossing traffic. If I am in the crosswalk, who has the right of way, me or the car? According to state law, me. How many cars didn't stop? About a dozen. How many bicyclists yelled at me for being in the bike lane? One. If he'd have given me about another half second to react, I might have kicked his back tire since he was completely in the wrong.

As tough as it is to believe, the pedestrian trumps all in traffic. Their the least protected. Then come bicyclists, then drivers.

 

As nerdy as this might sound, the issue of transport policy is one I get quite passionate about.

When I first moved to Melbourne I ditched my car as I couldn't really afford to keep running it and I felt that the public transport system here would suffice. Melbourne has trains, trams, and buses to get you pretty much anywhere if you live within a certain radius of the CBD (down town). It didn't take me long to realise that the city had a big problem on it's hands, it has growing pains, and simply doesn't have the infrastructure to cope. The train network is over crowded and in desperate need of repair, the tram network (the largest in the world) is in a similar state, the buses do alright but most routes don't run all that often and none of the networks integrate with each other. The main arterial roads here are also a bit of a nightmare.

I put up with it for just over a year when I finally decided to buy a bicycle, and I've never looked back. One of the first things I did was join an organization called Bicycle Victoria, I mainly did this because membership included a health and income insurance policy should you have an accident while riding. But, they also lobby the state and federal government on many issues affecting cyclists and they do a very good job of it. Inner city Melbourne is an awesome place to get around on by bike. The government has forked out millions over the last couple of years installing and upgrading infrastructure to make the city more cycle friendly and the general findings are that the more infrastructure they put in place, the more people start using it.

Cycling has boomed here in the last couple of years, and the government is doing what it can to promote it as it's easing the burden on public transport and, strangely enough, the public health system. The main lesson they've learned, the more asses on bike seats the more money they're saving. I think a major reason a lot of people are making the switch to cycling here is economics. Inner city Melbourne is getting very expensive, the price of petrol is hurting a lot of families, and the public transport system is letting us down, so a lot of people are starting to ride. I have three bikes now, and I can't honestly say they've paid for themselves man times over.

For the most part, the cycling culture is working well, and for the most part, motorists and cyclists are co-existing OK, but their are tensions. Personally, I'm all for cyclists needing registration and paying road fees just the same as motorists if it further legitimizes our right to use the road and changes driver attitudes towards us. A couple of years ago the state government amended that road laws so that cyclists face the exact same legal liabilities if they break the road rules, leave the scene of an accident, or cause harm or death through negligence. I was all for it because I really fucking hate it when other cyclists don't obey the road rules, and I swear to God if I see one more hipster shithead on a fixie pull some dangerous shit ever again I will thump them.

I do feel that cyclists need to accept that they take their life into their own hands when they ride. I've been riding for over three years now and I've had two accidents in which I was hit by one car and 'surprise-car-door!-ed' by another. Neither incident left me seriously injured, but in both situations it could have very easily been a lot worse, but I accept that risk when I ride, I try not to take motorists bullshit personally, and I ride as defensively as I can. Melbourne also has the ever present danger of tram tacks which not only beg for bike wheels to get wedged in them but are extremely slippery in the wet. On top of that, if you ride in the CBD it can be hard to predict what a driver is about to do if they're trying to make a hook turn.

I will admit though, cycling just isn't going to work in some cities without a lot of money being spent, fortunately I just happen to live in a city that is pretty bike friendly.

I think as energy prices continue to rise due to many factors and cities swell with more and more people the focus of transport policy will shift to light, mass transit, and metro transit rail systems along side promoting cycling. I honestly believe that if a lot of cities are going to survive people in general will need to seriously re-think what much personal mechanized transport means to them.

TLDR: Cycling in Melbourne is the jazz man.

 

Hey Mick, your description of the streets of Melbourne, cycling infrastructure aside, is very similar to Toronto. Our street car tracks are damn slippery and every time you cross them, you have the opportunity to get your wheel stuck.

I too can say that I've been doored a couple of times. The one time was particularly bad as when I fell, my head landed in the path of an oncoming bus. It stopped just shy of crushing my head. Not so fun.

I too love Transit Policy and how it all fits into City Planning.
--- merged: Aug 10, 2011 7:15 AM ---

Hey Jazz... the thread is about Cars, Bicycles and Pedestrians. Feel free to talk more about the Pedestrian experience.

I think it is safe to say that regardless of the mode of transport you choose, we are all Pedestrians at some point in our commute.

 

I can't tell you the number of times, as a pedestrian, that I have had cars almost hit me as I crossing the street. When I had kids in a stroller or a pram it was even worse. The stroller is out in front of you, where the cars are. There were a few close calls with cars making right turns and not looking.

I make it a practice, if a car gets close enough while I am legally crossing the road that I can touch it, I will give the car a rap. It has woken a few drivers up. It has also had a few try and cuss me out but in the end, they are in the wrong and it could have been much worse.

Pedestrians have the right of way. Wake the fuck up drivers.

 

Tracks can be tricky indeed - I recently tumbled on some as they came out parallel to me where I wasn't expecting them.. We have a newish streetcar in Seattle and the track placement turned out to be rather dangerous for bikes. It looks like the next streetcar will be better planned in that respect.

And transit policy / city planning are indeed very interesting in general

 

Apparently the neighborhood gossip is that a guy that lives down the street - 45+, sales manager, 2 kids - chased down a car and punched the driver through the open window after witnessing his wife and children almost get hit by that car at a stop sign. From what I hear, the guy was across the street and caught up to the guy at a stop light 2 blocks away. It's out of character for the guy, and the source of the story isn't the most trustworthy, but I get it.

Some of you may remember a few years ago when I was pushing my oldest in a stroller and almost got hit by a car at a stop sign when the driver decided that it didn't apply to him. I threw a water bottle that hit the back windshield and almost got in a fight with the driver right there on the street. A cop happened by before blows were exchanged and told me to have a nice day after the driver admitted that he didn't stop at the intersection. I also exchanged words last year with a bus driver who didn't want to stop for a red light and almost hit us when we stepped off the curb.

I am not afraid to confront a driver that's obviously breaking the law and putting people in danger. I live in a very pedestrian-friendly area, and there's no excuse for drivers not respecting the rights of folks on foot. If I'm in the cross walk trying to cross the street, you HAVE to stop. Sorry that it's an inconvenience, but that's the law. And when I'm driving I do my best to make sure that I follow the same set of rules that I expect when I'm walking.

 

I'm normally a very placid easy going person, and I'll be honest here, will generally avoid conflict or confrontation at all costs. But one thing that makes me see red and start loosing control of my anger is reckless drivers. There's something about people who seem only too willing to put peoples lives at great risk for absolutely no justifiable reason that touches a bit of a nerve.

I see it all the time on the roads here. People just do the most incredibly stupid shit while driving, and most of the time, I end up catching up to them at the next set of traffic lights on my pushy.

Something I've always found bemusing is that the very same hoons and fuckheads that pose a very real and tangible risk to peoples safety and well being while behind the wheel are the same ignorant tards who will bitch an moan about asylum seekers being a 'threat to the nation'.

But I'll come down from my oh so tall pedestal and admit that I have done some super dumb and reckless things behind the wheel when I was younger. Thinking back on some of it makes me feel pretty ashamed. But after being in a couple of accidents and having witnessed some really horrific car accidents the lesson was learned. I rarely drive these days, but when I do (and I try to take this attitude with my bike riding too), I take the attitude that I'd rather get to where I'm going alive rather than quickly. Really, at the end of the day, you get there when you get there, stressing out in traffic and driving recklessly isn't going to help anything.