Religion reduces science literacy in America

Actually, Jonie, there are several protestant denomination that believe faith alone, with no works whatsoever, gets one eternal salvation. Eddie might be Lutheran, for example. I was raised in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and one of their central teachings was faith, not works, for salvation.

 

How do they call themselves Christians then and do they bother with the New Testament? I don't know much about the Lutheran faith but can't imagine how they correlate this belief with the teachings of Jesus. Even fundamentalist Baptists here in the Bible Belt believe that their actions and good works (though maybe not as important as faith) are important as well. Is this Synod a cult of some sort or do all Lutherans believe this way?

Wow, I just Wiki'd Lutherism and you are correct. I had no idea they believed this. No offense but, how bizarre a notion. It appears to have come to America with German and Dutch immigrants who mostly settled in the upper Mid-West. I have a feeling it's probably more prevalent out there than it is where I am which is why I'm so unfamiliar with it. I'd always assumed Lutherans were just another standard branch of Protestantism with minor differences.

Sorry, Eddie. If this is the sort of thing you've been surrounded by all of your life, I can understand why you might believe that this is the true Christian way. To say it isn't or at least isn't the only way would probably not compute for you, considering the sort of indoctrination you've been exposed to.

Live and learn.

I don't imagine they have many Lutheran based food pantries or homeless shelters out there then. So who helps the poor? Might Eddie's opinion that the poor and less fortunate should be left to fend for themselves stem from his religious beliefs rather than from a cold and insensitive heart?

What other denominations believe in faith alone?

 

Bear in mine this answer is coming from my perspective, as a nonbeliever, and I don't mean to offend anyone by it: everyone selectively reads the Bible. Methodists selectively read the Bible, Pentecostals selectively read the Bible, Roman Catholics selectively read the Bible, and Lutherans selectively read the Bible. Nondenoms, too. There's a term that was very popular back when I was in church called "cafeteria Christian". It was a derogatory term used by people who thought themselves purer distillations of Christian to pick on people who they thought just picked and chose what to believe in the Bible, leaving what they didn't want. They all do that. You, Christians, all do that. And a lot of Christians do it with the big stuff, too. Why? Because some of it is terribly out of date, some of it is morally reprehensible, some of it because you're told to by a pastor, and some of it because you simply don't understand it (not that I can blame you, as parts of the Bible can be fairly nonsensical even with mountains of context).

I'm pretty sure the ELCA follows the same basic concept, though perhaps a bit more loosely as the ELCA is more liberal than the LCMS. I'm pretty sure the WELS does, too. No, I think it's pretty common among Lutherans. Is Lutheranism a cult? It depends on your definition. According to my definition, it is, but I also consider the Catholic church a cult, so take that as you will.

They are. Most denominations believe in some mixture of works and faith, the Lutherans just tend to be the farthest on the faith side of the scale. All denominations are somewhere on it, and they're pretty evenly dispersed.

Actually, all four Lutheran churches I belonged to before my deconversion had ministries for aiding the less fortunate. One of them even had a building dedicated to giving out large amounts of food and clothing to people in need in the community. Lutherans believe that they're granted access to heaven with faith, but they practice good works anyway, because those good works were modeled by Jesus. Faith grants access to heaven, good works follows what Jesus commanded. That's Lutheranism in a nutshell.

Sola fide is common among Protestant denominations. Lutherans and Reformed are the big names in the concept, but you can find it in Angelican churches, some Southern Baptist churches, Mennonites, United Methodist, and among many non-denominational Evangelicals. I think you'd be surprised at how common it is.

 

Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For by GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH...not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, not by WORKS so that no man can boast."

That's not one of those verses you're going to hear about in Catholic Church. Catholicism has replaced God's grace with the CHURCH. Catholicism is all about the money and the power. They've been extorting their followers from day one. Catholicism is by far the biggest con game in the world. All you have to do is give your money and jump through their hoops and the Catholic church will make sure you get your ticket to heaven.

Catholic priests have deified themselves as though they are anointed by God. Matthew 23:9 "Call no man on earth 'Father', for you have but one Father and He is in heaven." You know what happens when men try to deify themselves? They find out just how far away from God they really are...which is why pedophilia is a staple of Catholicism. You put yourself is God's place and you will be cursed.

And then the Catholic church manipulates its followers by getting them to confess their sins to these priests. But nowhere in the bible does it require believers in Jesus to confess their sins to a priest. We need to confess our sins to God, for He hears us. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

As long as you do what the Catholic Church tells you to do...you can go to heaven. You don't need God, you just need the CHURCH. The CHURCH is your ticket to salvation....not Jesus. That's what the religion teaches people.

 

jesus. reading no. 85 is like reading some of the incoherent nonsense that 17th century people in the town i live in wrote right about the times they would gather themselves into militias and go wandering around somewhere in the vicinity of quebec hunting catholics...vile, uninformed bigoted horseshit written by people operating with equal measures of ignorance and sanctimoniousness. loathesome.

 

Not only that, it's kind of a distraction from the topic we were trying to get Eddie to actually address.

Remember, before that nonsense about the pluralization of the short title of the last book of the bible.

Lest we forget Baraka asked Eddie an important question:

I for one am anxious to see the response.

 

Your assessment, while colorful, makes nothing I said less true. But I appreciate your response anyway.

 

like most other bigots, eddie, you imagine your bigotry is based on reality.

 

Coming from you...that really hurts.

 

How the religious distinguish themselves from each other is a matter of curiosity only. Science and reason saved me 40 years ago and I no longer have to worry about making those sort of distinctions. I'm free to grasp ideas that are completely foreign to you and act upon them with a conscience that is my own. I'm beholden to nothing except my own conscience. I don't have to worry about a reward or punishment in some afterlife. I only have to concern myself with how I conduct myself and treat my fellow humans today. You like to talk about freedom? That's real freedom.

 

Freedom to burn in hell for all eternity? No thanks. Humans are on this earth for a split second. I prefer to think more long-term.

 

In an earlier post, I pointed out the modern Christian misinterpretation of Hell. Jesus referred to it as an actual place on Earth called Gehanna and so it is. But, if the threat of a hellish, otherworldly afterlife life keeps you and others from committing adultery or pedophilia or armed robbery, then I suppose we should all count our blessings that some of you are not further burdening the court and prison systems.

 

When my daughter was in 5th grade, her teacher stood in front of a map that showed how the earth might have looked before the continents began to split (Panagaea). Had she continued on with the lesson, my daughter would have heard about fault lines and continental drift. But the teacher took a big red marker and X'd out Panagaea. She told the students that when God created the earth it looked just as it does now. Panagaea was a lie created by atheists. But my daughter was not convinced and asked me about it when she got home. I showed her on our globe how the continents could fit perfectly into each other, were they to move back together. I had no problem being the one to have to tell her about this but was outraged at the teacher's behavior. When I spoke to the school administrator about it, I was brushed off and told that if I was unsatisfied with the education my daughter was getting, I could hire her a tutor or send her to a private school.

I get your point, Baraka. DNFTT, but I also know, first hand, one way in which religion works to reduce science literacy.

 

Stop it! You're going to ruin another thread that's entirely about Eddie's desperate attempts at attention!

I'm hoping he'll say something about Jews next.Or perhaps he'll go REALLY crazy and blame the US government for 9/11.

 

I thought the whole thread jack was a case study.

 

Interesting and sad. I grew up in Utah, which is very conservative but has a different flavor of Christianity than the South/Bible Belt. I remember being taught about Pangaea, the big bang theory, evolution (except for human), etc. There was no religious tinge to the teachings...I'm not sure of the Mormon view on evolution, the creation of the earth, etc, but reading your quote makes me thankful the ideas presented to me were presented in the way they were. It also partially answers the chicken-and-egg question I came into the thread with...does religion stifle science literacy because of the lack of decent science education in religious areas, or does lack of decent education cause religious people to fill in the gaps? It seems it's a vicious circle.

Now for a story. My dad went back to school in the late nineties. He received a scholarship and stipend that stipulated he could not work during the school year, so he would supplement his stipend by being a tour guide in Yellowstone during the summer. In addition to the obvious tour info of the park, he would tell his clients about the surrounding wildlife, vegetation, etc. This extra info included information on the formation of the Rocky Mountains.

One of his tours was with a husband and wife from the deep South. He was giving his spiel on the creation of the Rockies however many millions of years ago and he looked in his rearview mirror and saw the woman scowling, folding her across her chest. He realized they were Christian, probably fundamentalist, but he proceeded with his talk anyway. He said the man had this "Holy shit, this makes perfect sense but WTF the Bible says the earth is only 6,000 years old" look on his face. The man also asked questions, but the wife didn't. My dad was greatly saddened that by the end of the tour (which were several days long), the man had the same closed, scowling look on his face that the wife did, and he wonders if he was able to plant a seed in the man's mind that wasn't completely squashed.