Occupy Wall Street

Ah...anecdotal "evidence" from attending (btw, how long where you and your friends there...an hour, over night?) a handful of the hundreds of events in cities across the country and you know what the movement is all about...laptops, pissing in public, protecting rapists.....

Did you go to Operation Cincinnati which resulted in the creation of The Occupation Party with a detailed policy/legislative agenda?

http://theoccupationparty.org/platform (click on each of the five issues for detailed proposals or policy statements).

 

gee, pan, after a half dozen or so posts complaining about people putting words in your mouth, i would have thought that a matter of principle with you so that you wouldn't do the same thing to others. i seem to remember you complaining about others doing that sort of thing to other groups of others too. i'm not entirely sure what to make of this. it would appear to create problems for your principled stands in these posts about ows. you know, in the way that actions which contradict principles do. like you claim ows is doing, except smaller in scale. ouch.

 

i guess i'm still confused as to how a corporation on one side and a corporation on the other side isn't equivalence.

i guess i've missed out on it (please don't mistake this for ignorance, it's just hard to get news when one is restricted from seeing any videos), but it seems like more of a bipartisan play to say that both sides are using the same arguments, just for different sides.

isn't this just the teensiest bit unfair to conservatives? once again, if you replace "conservative" with "liberal", i'm confident you'd find a comparable amount of people on either side using the same argument to further their cause.

i'd like to think of myself as politically centrally aligned as i can make myself. not out of any desire to try and please both sides, i just think that extremism in either direction is just a bad idea. that being said, i was under the impression that i did come up with this on my own

i still fail to see my logical missteps. maybe it's just me being sophomoric/too young, but i actually wanted to hear what you want to say outside of "we've said/heard this a million times".

with that, i'd like to dismiss myself from this discussion since it's just turning into a cycle of people jabbing at one another's ability to take quotes out of context or whatever else is causing all this animosity and minimizing the amount of productive discussion.

 

well, event horizon, the point is that afp/koch was an entirely different sort of entity (a political shell organization set up to channel money in the wake of citizens united and to exert pressure/influence over the republican party in the process) and ben & jerry's makes ice cream. for starters. the relation to the tea party from afp was totally different---ben & jerrys is exerting no influence over the direction of ows---in fact, as ows is structured, it'd be impossible to do even it was the company's fondest desire--because it is a direct-democratic undertaking. which is also quite different. this is kinda what i meant--and in this, i'm also going over some of the same points redux made earlier. this is how the false equivalence works--erasing basic differences at the level of concerete reality beneath conclusions drawn on the basis of superficial resemblance.

and apologies for getting up on the my hobby horse about conservative ideology. the stuff annoys the crap out of me. equating the right with some "liberal" mirror image is another false equivalence, one with a long history of usage in conservative ideology, btw...the basic technique of projection that makes everything the right does appear a response. problem is that i've spent a long time working with/around conservative ideology as a discursive form as a kind of dorky parlor game and sometimes it seems very unified and discrete to me where it might not to other folk. and it's beside the point here....

 

If that is the impression the one of the early OWS supporters has and there are ex supporters who say far worse things and you believe it is all their fault, then you have a problem because you are so far left that the moderates you need to elect OWS supportive politicians into office to help make the changes, will never come back into support.

But keep believing it is everyone else's problem and that OWS doesn't need to change the public's once favorable perception of them.

No I didn't make it to Cincy as I live pretty much equal distance, between Cleveland and Columbus (roughly an hour away) and Cincy is a 3 hour drive one way. So a drive to Cincy for a man who has no income and still has some health issues would be difficult. It'd be equivalent to 3 round trips to either Cleve. or Cols.
--- merged: Nov 18, 2011 8:26 PM ---

I don't think so because I think you are extremely elitist and feel superior to others and I was trying to add humor. Sorry if the high and mighty can't understand the guttural humor of us low lying people. Next time I will try to stupify myself down to levels you believe everyone else to be at.

 

On a side note note to everything else being discussed I was recently in the SFO area and went down to the several occupy movements just to see what was going on. In SFO itself I walked into a Starbucks type coffee shop and used the restroom. No one stopped me or asked me if was going to order something. I did order a cup of coffee on the way out and asked if the "occupy folks" were causing them problems or hurting their business. The lady behind the counter told me if anything business is up. According to her the "occupiers" order water and tea and the press order coffee and muffins. So I don't think you can make a blanket statement that the OWS people are hurting every business.

 

Uh oh...there you go putting words in my mouth (should I COMPLAIN IN CAPS?). I said your "evidence" was anecdotal;I didnt suggest anything was "your fault" or the fault of any former supporters you might know.

What evidence do you have that the public's once favorable perception of OWS is less than it was a month ago?

 

I don't know one can laud the civil disobedience of MLK or Gandhi while complaining about how OWS protestors are lawbreakers. And I don't know how anyone could pretend that the actions of MLK and Gandhi didn't contribute to short term economic hardships (not to mention cause some inconvenience for commuters, I bet) of some of their countryfolk.

With respect to Koch Industries vs. Ben and Jerry's, I could see how one could confuse the two. Also, if you purposefully ignore all the salient details a brown bunny looks a lot like a brown bear, and because of this fact, I, for one, wouldn't want to meet either in a darkened meadow.

 

speaking as an elitist, i'll say that what's changed over the past month is the extent of negative coverage from the right (predictable) and a curious mixture of coverages at the local levels (witness the posts cyn has been putting up, which are pretty helpful for tracking how the game is being played...it's repeating in different cities, the pattern.) but of course, this is an elitist view and wouldn't stand up to anecdotal stuff.

 

I'm not going to argue anymore since the far leftists here have decided they don't want moderates to show them flaws and why they are/will lose support. Let's just say that they have taken great pride in "occupying many cities" yet the occupation numbers are dwindling and they are losing support on the lines.

They'll blame "negative coverage" and "people who rewrite history" but they refuse to listen and to even talk without blaming "the press", "rewrites of history", "some bad eggs" instead of saying, you know we don't need I phones or laptops, we don't need propane tanks. We need to acknowledge that we have been played and owe our existence to the 1% owning Zucotti Park. We need to get back to our original focus and stop playing with people's lives. Maybe we should listen to moderates instead of treating them like they know nothing. Naw, we don't need them and we WILL not give up our I Phones and laptops.

It was and is a very noble cause just in the hands of the wrong people. Just like the TP.

The sad part is, the TP knows and some acknowledge who owns their movement, the OWS is owned and being played as puppets but they are too blind to see it.

Koch industries vs Unilever (owners of Ben and Jerry's BTW and one of the companies that is definitely in the top 1% which also owns Breyer's also. It just so happens Ben and Jerry's because of the cool references and retro anti establishment commercialization is an easier way to send money in. But trust me, Unilever is USING YOU and you lap it up and say Koch Koch Koch to the other side while too blind to see you are in the same boat with the 1% you want to fight.)..... see the OWS don't even realize who supports them, they have Unilever and Brookfield showing support and yet they want to act as though they have no support that no one influences them. Brookfield and Unilever make money, they want returns on their investments, OWS is an investment and they WILL want to see a return. If and when they don't and public opinion turns (and it will because as we see here the OWS is run by people who believe they are smarter and better and when called on it they poo poo it off and would rather lose support than face the truth) Unilever and Brookfield will no longer support OWS.

As for the press, when you stop making profit for the media they'll move along, then you will go crazy trying to show you are still relevant and well, you'll lose the remaining support of those that are sane and have some semblance of what is right and what is wrong. That'll just leave the far leftists fighting for relevance, which we saw in the 70's and eventually they put Reagan, Bush and Bush in the White House, and the 3 they did have Carter, Clinton and Obama they treated like pariahs because they weren't far enough left.

I will say it again, the OWS is becoming the left version of the TP. Only eventually the OWS will regain it's senses and become more centristic and non partisan and stay relevant. One can hope, but if they continue down the road that the supporters here want them to, they will lose the moderate support they need.
--- merged: Nov 19, 2011 2:20 AM ---

i'm not putting words in your mouth, I am espousing the views and attitudes I see here. Complain in CAPS. Truly I don't see why CAPS bother people so much. CAPS make it easier for me to read, but because the majority of people don't like caps, I refrain from 100% usage out of respect, i am sure if I did 100% usage the mods and community would not like it. So I compromise and magnify my browser to 207 so I can read. It's over kill and is a bitch to try to fit onto the monitor, but I do so because compromise is the only way to show a community respect and to also earn that respect back.

 

ok so...i dont think you understand basic things about the ows. the numbers aren't being counted. there's no center. there's a series of actions that are in communication with each other. it's a direct democratic movement. it's fundamentally different, structurally and substantively, from the tea party. i don't know where you get the idea of dwindling numbers from...the fact is that there's different things happening in different places. and it is entirely circular to equate the effects of the recent moves to break up the encampments (or, in places like chicago, the attempts to prevent them from happening) with fluctuations in support. i have no idea where you're getting your information. i'm in pretty close contact with folk in boston, nyc, philadelphia and sf and nothing like what you're talking about is happening.

what i do see is a whole lot of standard-issue rightwing nonsense in your characterization of the people who are involved. and i also see no real understanding---at all---of what the occupation movement is about.

insofar as ben & jerry's is concerned, suffice it to say that you don't know what you're talking about...they've been interested in progressive politics since jump. the unilever buyout was hostile, a function of the company making the mistake of going public. i've met ben a few times---he left after the buyout---and he is quite involved with left politics. so, for that matter, is jerry---the conflict was about the changes in organization that unilever imposed, particularly the abandonment of the proportion in pay between the ceo and workers. it's pretty obvious to anyone who knows anything about ben & jerrys that they have autonomy to act independently, that theyre merely a subsidiary, and that in offering some support to ows they're acting in a way consistent with how the companys been oriented since its inception.

these converge on the lack of understanding of what ows is about. you seem to accept the conservative bullshit characterization of the movement as being anti-capitalist in any direct way---fact is that it's about a particular form of capitalism, the one that's been dominant in the united states, the type that the contemporary right carries shit for. because you accept that conservative media line about what the movement is about, you slide right into the superficial idea that there's some contradiction between using social media to mobilize--which presupposes the technologies---and some fake, artificial notion of "purity" that's entirely a right-wing fiction.

why not look at information that originates with the occupation---look up occupy boston or ows itself. see what they say. it's not what you seem to imagine.

and stop making everything about your sense of personal vulnerability---it's really about the information you're relying on. if that's false--and much of it is---then much of the rest of your position could come apart. and this not in a bad way...more a chance to seriously look into the movement that you're, to my mind, really quick to dispense with.

 

Fuck it I tried.

I will say this, the left is so far left they HATE there is no middle ground. I'm not saying my information is fact, but the way you have handled my arguments have helped me solidify my decision that you all are far left extremist cry babies. there is no middle ground. Either I see what YOU want me to see or my opinions and whether I support you or not doesn't matter. But I will give you a hint, I have a feeling more people think like I do than they think like you. You are so full of hate when you do elect a president you destroy him, and hand the White House over to the right, then complain about it.

IF this country has moved to the right the past 3 decades it is solely because the FAR LEFT refuse to let the middle be heard and when the middle speaks out "it's because you are brainwashed and get only state fed right winged media and you are too stupid to go out and see what the truth is."

Look at how you treated Event, he/she brought up that the rhetoric from the FAR RIGHT is the same exact rhetoric and excuses the FAR LEFT use. It's all just substituting names.

The problem lies with the fact that the extremists on both sides are so full of hate that they are squeezing the middle and stifling voices and treating the middle like they know nothing, they are ignorant and "asleep". When that couldn't be further from the truth, it's just the extremists refuse to acknowledge the middle, because in doing so they would have to recognize how far and extreme they truly are.

As for the Unilever/Ben and Jerry's issue. I'm sure you and Ben are great friends and you know first hand every detail about the buyout. I don't admit to knowing anything other than Unilever is NOT a company that wants to buy (whether hostile or not) a company that they have absolutely no control over or that is going to hurt the Unilever name and hurt all company profits. So, to say Ben and Jerry's supports you but Unilever has nothing to do with it is foolhardy and BS. Just as it is to say Brookfield has nothing to do with you being allowed to stay in the park. they both can pull support and the plug at any time. You don't want to admit it because you would in essence have to admit being supported by the 1%.

You are puppets and you don't even see it. The OWS is NOTHING but the leftist Tea Party.

And yes, I got all that listening to the Right. Not a word of it is from my mind. You would rather blame outside sources than to believe someone is smart enough to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

I am in no way a supporter of the RIGHT because I prefer to keep religion out of politics and I believe that they are too worried about protecting the rich's interests at the expense of national interests. I guess I'm not LEFT because I choose to be a free thinker and can see and smell the bullshit on both sides. So people like me to you don't count, but to the people like me we DO count. And if we don't count to you and yet we are the 99 that the OWS and Occupy groups say they are fighting for then, truly you aren't fighting for us if even in your eyes we don't matter. It's all about you being right and your hatred of anyone or anything that disagrees with you.

 

You do realize the highlighted part of your quote is utter BS, that the 7% wage ratio was discontinued BEFORE the Unilever buyout in 2000.

From Wiki:

So now who is distorting FACTS? And even the doing the math at $8/an hour someone full time working 40hr/wk 52 wks only made 16,640/a year 7 times which is 116,480 and yet the COO at the time was making 150,000 so by my math in order to have that true ratio the workers should have been making $10.30/hr. just starting.

Next time you talk to Ben mention this.

You want to call BS on me and then refuse to show where or how.... well, at least when I call bullshit on you, I will give you the wheres and hows and do the research.

 

How hard is it to go hang out with a group of people and chant slogans? Not very. How hard is it to put together a legitimate strategy for change? Pretty dang hard. This is why I think the OWS is a lazy, entitled group of spoiled brats. They want someone else to do the actual work. They just wanna stand there and bitch.

 

for example:

on the nypd arresting press covering ows.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/164683/targeting-media-who-cover-ows

http://rt.com/usa/news/press-nypd-arrest-bloomberg-689/

police using pepper spray on students participating in the movement at uc davis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjnR7xET7Uo

what the center does:

http://politics.salon.com/2011/11/18/paul_krugman_and_the_art_of_calling_out_a_colleague/

 

Pan:

I dont hate that there is no middle ground. I dont agree with that assertion, particularly given that the democratic party is not nearly as far left as the republican party is far right, but in any case, I am a strong believer in consensus building with folks who are interested in rational, as opposed to overly emotional, approaches to addressing and solving the problems that face the nation. However, it is difficult to even engage in discussions with one who takes every challenge to their opinion as a personal attack.

And I dont hate anyone who disagrees with me. As I said in another thread, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts.

I do have a hard taking self-proclaimed martyrs for middle very seriously when they rewrite history and offer anecdotes as evidence that cant be supported with facts or when they proclaim that others HATE simply because they disagree with your opinion. HATE is an ugly word used by extremists, not those truly in the middle, to encourage dissension rather than seek out solutions.

When ones proclaims that others HATE, I would respectfully suggest that person look inward first.

 

Far left? What does the far left look like in the United States?