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ZICAM Does it work?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by DAKA, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    No, because your tone has been snide and demeaning
    That’s unproductive

    Argue your point and leave the other stuff out.
    Then it may be received better.
     
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  2. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Don't criticize me because you didn't get the answer you wanted.
     
  3. DAKA

    DAKA DOING VERY NICELY, THANK YOU

    Done with this....you WIN
     
  4. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    It wasn’t the answer, it was the way it was said.
    That’s what I’m criticizing.
     
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  5. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    No, he didn't. This discussion (argument) is a matter of opinion, not absolute fact. There is no winner or loser.
     
  6. DAKA

    DAKA DOING VERY NICELY, THANK YOU

    He thinks he did....and as far as I give a s**t as the famous saying goes "what difference does it make"
     
  7. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Chris, Science and proof are not matters of opinion.
     
  8. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I'm not supporting, or attempting to refute, either side. I'd be interested to know if there are any extensive studies that also test for a placebo effect.

    And each side can present scientific proof. Is there it absolute proof that it doesn't work, or just indications that it isn't supposed to work? And vise a versa.
     
  9. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    To a certain extent...

    But I’ve read enough studies and white papers over the decades to know they can be wrong, off-based, poor peer reviewed, not enough tests, biased, have an agenda, poor sources and so on.

    Much less have reversed opinions over time
    Especially in regards to health, food and medicine

    I’m a scientist, not professional, but a long time actor who has done his own work and tests.
    I haven’t been wrong yet
    That and I know the pharmaceutical industry from the inside
    And I have some knowledge and experience in medicine
    And I’m a professional tech

    So it’s not like I’m some rube.
    And I don’t know how to filter studies and sources

    This is why I said, you attempt prove your opinion
    And I’ll attempt to prove mine.

    Just saying science, fact and proof doesn’t make it so. Gotta show it.

    BTW, I used to have a job doing media research for medicines and their effects so they could pass the FDA - Fact

    So, put it out there.
    We’ll judge
    Just like you have already done to us.
     
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  10. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    Way to put on airs so that you can pretend some sort of superiority. You talk a lot. Always have. I find it laughable that you have never been wrong, but you stated it. So here is my superiority. Masters degree, personal trainer for over 8 years. Prodigious consumer of information. Exwife is a nurse. Girlfriend is a nurse oncologist manager with a masters in nursing.
    If you understood one thing about scientific inquiry you would understand that you have to prove a positive. You thus far have not done so. I don't have to quote studies showing a null effect. You have to prove your statement that there is a measurable effect. Studies that claim an effect have been paid for by the people who sell it. Homeopathic items have never been shown to be efficacious.
    So put it out there. And dont try to dickwave in front of me again. I have read enough of your writings for years that I will go toe to toe with you. I don't write fluff.
     
  11. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    @omega , again I respectfully disagree
    While yes, I talk a lot and always have that isn’t a proof or even a sample. It’s a argument tactic.
    I’m glad you’ve read my stuff. Hope you enjoyed.

    Your masters degree may not be in the medical or science. Your ex-wife or otherwise isn’t a qualifier either for yourself. Unless they’ve stated themselves that it doesn’t work..and I will take you at your word and add that in as an opinion or perspective. Your 8 years as a personal trainer may be something to consider. Although at times they’ve been incorrect too. Just like potentially scientists.

    But sorry, a proof is a proof...a sample is a sample. Positive, neutral, negative or null.
    The test is the proof.

    For example, I had an associate ask a question of me as a subject matter expert, while I thought I knew the answer. I tested it out, saw the results, it differed than what I thought initially. And I reported the results. One part was correct, another was correct, except for another aspect and the last part acted slightly different than expected. All of this put out there and reported on.

    The opinions that I base on this chemical are not from just studies but through my own experience and testing. Baselines, changes, what worked and what didn’t. Tests.

    Two types worked, two versions didn’t, when I had a cold, I noted when it did work and if it didn’t. I found the trend and patterns. And I didn’t read one inch of vendor hype or marketing.

    It was suggested by someone I respected
    And after I recommended it, others I respect noted it worked for them. Each with long backgrounds in medicine and detailed knowledge of drugs.

    Only after that did I start doing research to see what was said. But I did test it first.

    I don’t like taking meds. Or vitamins or otherwise.
    I’ve seen their side effects, plus I’m a cheap bastard. So I don’t take them unless they offer a benefit.

    Seems like you’re having a cognitive bias.
    And applying that with an aggressive attitude to those who may differ.

    I say, test it out.
    See what works, what doesn’t

    The test is the proof for yourself.
    Proof goes all ways.

    See, I’ve talked a lot again
    Then again, I know this...don’t deny it.
    And it’s proven.
    Doesn’t make me wrong.
    Nor am I claiming I’m utterly right.

    I said it worked for me
    Others I respect said it worked for them.
    I said try it.
    Test it.
    See if it works.

    Nice debate
    Please leave my dick out of it...it gets in enough trouble. Proven.
     
  12. omega

    omega Very Tilted

    I will address this to anyone reading. Zicam's own website states it is homeopathic (I hate to link these terms) medicine. This is lifted from wikipedia, but this quotes a metanalysis of homeopathic studies.

    In 2005, The Lancet medical journal published a meta-analysis of 110 placebo-controlled homeopathy trials and 110 matched medical trials based upon the Swiss government's Programme for Evaluating Complementary Medicine, or PEK. The study concluded that its findings were "compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are placebo effects".[7] This was accompanied by an editorial pronouncing "The end of homoeopathy",[196]which was denounced by the homeopath Peter Fisher.[197]

    Now how much zinc is actually in each dose is debatable. If you read a zicam label it will typically state a dilution factor of 1x or 2x. 1x of what initial amount? I think that 1x means a dilution factor of 100. So 2x would be a dilution factor of 200. I ask you readers, can you think of any medication where less is more? If you have a bad headache, do you take fewer aspirin tablets? If you have a raging infection, do you decrease the dose of antibiotics? No. Medicine doesn't work like that. Can you think of any medication or drug where you cannot see a measurable dose listed? I never have. So we have established that homeopathic products don't work and that zicam is by their own admittance a homeopathic product.
    If you are interested in trying zinc to see if it actually reduces the severity of a cold (which no rigorous study has proven), then buy a container of zinc tablets. It will cost less and actually give you a measurable amount of zinc. Then you can control for factors like volume of administration per hour or amount consumed per kilo of bodyweight.
     
  13. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Thanks for the references, much appreciated.
    It's good to see some links for support.

    However, I'll cut to the chase...this is not from Wikipedia, which we all know is not always accurate...
    But this is from the National Institute of Health - a Federal Government website and one of our best research entities. (specifically the Office of Dietary Supplements)

    NIH.gov - Office of Dietary Supplements - Zinc
    This is on Zinc all-together...but aways down the page, please note the portion on Zinc and Health...and distinctly the Common Cold

    I believe this page should give anyone the idea of how it could potentially benefit them for "The Common Cold" ...not flus, not allergies, not sore throats and otherwise.
    And it can also give an idea of potential side-effects that a few may experience. (this is per the individual...and doesn't occur in volume, mostly exceptions than the rule)
    IF it has any adverse reaction if you try it, please discontinue it.

    I do agree that just Zinc by itself may be a benefit, however there is a chance of overdose and adverse reactions if you don't know how much to take.
    This is why I prefer a marketed item, personally....they’ve done the measurements.

    Now as far as Zicam...

    They purposely market and register is as a Homeopathic for various business reasons.

    I found a good description of why than I could attempt to write up...although from my experience in the pharmaceutical industry, I knew of this and the various games/posturing companies do.
    Does homeopathic zinc (Zicam) help with the common cold? - (from Skeptics.Stackexchange)
    Now...this is a good explanation of marketing of pharma...but I wouldn't take this pages opinion on the med or minerial itself.
    Please only do so from established medical entities, such as NIH above.

    Newspapers can be biased or circumspect or unaware of the aspects, can be either negative, positive or not up to date.
    often they just want the headline.
    For example, respected news sources such as these. NPR, NYT, etc.. (I picked out ones proving my point...there are ones that show the other and back and forth and back and forth)
    For Cold Virus, Zinc May Edge Out Even Chicken Soup - New York Times
    Zinc May Help Fight Cold Symptoms After All - National Public Radio NPR
    Zinc found to be effective in treating colds - LA Times

    Obviously, most places say...it's not unsafe.
    Even the nasal version issue has been resolved...but just to be safe, it's likely best and to give the warm and fuzzies...take the oral. (plus I think the nasal version chemical is different and doesn't have the same active ingredient)
    The Tablets or the Spray.

    I still say try it.
    See if it works on you.

    You can try the name brand...but that's a bit pricey.
    Frankly, you can get the same benefits from generic. (AND you don't have to worry about Zicam's bias or agenda there)
    BONUS: Generic is much cheaper. (although, Costco has a good buy on it)

    Test it out.
    See what works, what doesn't

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2018