babies shouldn't have babies

When it comes to children, every parent fucks up somewhere no matter their education, financial preparation or lack thereof.

No matter if the child was prepared for or accidental.

I've seen parents with PHDs and summer homes fuck their children up royally in the most unimaginable ways.

I've seen young girls raising their child on their own fuck up less than would be expected considering their immaturity and lack of money and support. Sure, it would be great if they were a bit more mature and better off financially but.... who does it serve to beat them over the head with their irresponsibility and recklessness, after the fact? Better to be supportive for the child's sake as well as the mother's. And I stress being supportive rather than attempting to relieve them of their responsibility.

I've unintentionally done some fucking up with my kids despite my best intentions not to. They've survived and developed in ways that I would never have expected, possibly due to the fuck ups, but who knows.

I guess I want to say that there's no magic formula, no best possible environment unless it's the one dominated by love and the desire and commitment to be a good parent.

Even then, fucking up will occur. We are all a product of our own parents who fucked up somewhere with us. Some of us have been damaged by it and floundered. Some of us have been damaged by it and risen above it. No one reaches adulthood having been perfectly parented.

Raising children is neither an art nor a science, it's a learn as we go experiment and experience. Knowledge we've gained through education or in our careers is useless. Well laid plans for our children's future success is a gamble. There are no guarantees.

We just do the best we can (aware that we are bound to fuck up somewhere) and hope they have the character to rise above us.

If you don't believe me, try being a parent.

I'll worry when we stop having babies.

4

 

Dearest me! [dramatic music]
Sarcasm! [crescendo]
Intellectual put-downs! [molto crescendo]

Every parent has weaknesses. Every parent fails their children in some way. Pointing out that teenagers fall into the category of imperfect parents is, like pointing out that they also fall into the category of 'teenager', vacuous.

Age (to a large extent) is a crappy predictor of parenting ability. The reason is simple; there is considerably more variation within any age group than there is between age groups. So much so that discussing '18 year-old parents', as though they had some resemblance to a uniform cohort, is untenable.

Also, even if I granted you that as a statistical group 18 year-old parents aren't as good as 25 year-old parents at parenting, that would in no way justify a ham-handed dismissal of an individual's choice to become a parent at 18 as emotionally immature or unintelligent.

 

We haven't discussed individual cases. We're talking in general terms, ipso facto: generalizations follow.

In general, it doesn't make sense to support 18-yr olds in their short-term pursuit to parenthood, due to their (often) lack of maturity, knowledge and financial resources; which in turn affect how well a child is cared for, how their character development is pursued, and what education they are likely to receive. Everyone here talks about how imperfect all parents are, but we don't need to accept a baseless and entirely selfish increase in the imperfection, simply because teenagers can't fucking wait.

Anything else to add?

 

this thread reminds me of IDIOCRACY. In the movie the smart and successful people WAIT to have kids and dont have the TIME to have kids. Whereas the redneck teens are reproducing like ants and 5000 generations later, rule the world.

I don't envy a teen in such a position of responsibility, at that age I could barely take care of myself on my own, let alone a child. Thank god most of them have their family though, that will make or break it.

 

I like the part of the thread where we talk about babies having babies as if it's some big elaborate deliberate thing instead of just mostly made up of horny teens fucking.

 

how many 18 year old parents do you know that are fuckups? enough to make a generalized statement?

 

I have something to add.

1) You have an opinion I agree with. Having a child because one "can't fucking wait" is a poor reason to have a child unless the urgency stems from a desire to have children before it's no longer an option.

Other poor reasons:

Compensation - "I want a baby who will love me because my parents never did"
Ego - "My son/daughter will be a reflection of me and my success"
Revenge - "I'll show my parents - I'm old enough to do what I want"
Manipulation - "If I get pregnant "boyfriend/husband" won't leave me"
Low self esteem/lack of confidence - "I'm not smart enough to go to college or get a job. If I have a baby no one will expect more of me"
Mimicry - "Amy's baby is so cute, like a little doll. I wish I had one"
Pressure - "We've been married for 5 years. Everyone expects us to have a kid"
Control - "My life is out of whack. A child will provide stability" or "I need something/someone I can control"

There's other undesirable reasons, but those come to mind. A few of them are reasons some young girls have for wanting a baby. Others are reasons that are not age specific.

I also agree that teenagers should not be encouraged to have a child willingly, nor should support be given to the idea, where there's strong evidence that it's for the wrong reasons.

And I'm not sure whether or not you are actually expressing this, but I regard anyone who believes that a mother and her child should be ostracized or denied support (for any reason) during pregnancy and once the child is born, as being very, very cold. So cold, in fact, I would regard the person who felt that way as likely being unsuitable for parenthood themselves.

I get the idea, Remixer, that you believe raising a child is more reliant on planning, preparation and making sure he/she gets into the "right" college than on the fundamental requirements of love, affection, patience, discipline and commitment to the child's overall emotional and physical well-being. Yes, a good education and being able to financially provide for children is definitely icing on the cake but it's not the cake. I'm a parent and have had the benefit of being around long enough to have known scores of other parents raising their children in all manner of circumstances. And I'm the sort of person who pays attention to odd things others might not.

In my experience, I have not seen much disparity in the end products - not in the ways that count. If anything, I've noticed overall, that the children of parents who spared them little in the way of luxury (because they could) have proven to be a bit more disappointing in terms of their character, self-discipline, ambition, and compassion for others. But that's just a general sense I have and not based on anything more.

I admire your commitment to your goals and believe that you believe you're on the right path here. I do find your thinking to be a bit rigid, which is not a parental attribute that generally works out in a child's best interest, but you are who you are and I sincerely wish you the best when decide to take the plunge into parenthood. One thing is for sure, you will have it well researched. Good luck with that.

 

Joniemack

Appreciate your agreement, but yeah, you got me wrong. I'm not an either/or person. I see love, affection, patience, discipline, commitment as more important than planning and preparation. However, planning and preparation are often foregone unnecessarily because those young mothers/fathers didn't wait until they had the skills to do the same in a better fashion/at all.

My point stands, and is helped by yours. Patience and discipline are not attributes you find much of in most young parents. Especially discipline I see as a paramount attribute of parents, right after affection.

And no, I don't believe young parents should be ostracized, especially not their children. However, I reject the support for the idea of young parenthood, which some (thankfully not the majority) here in the forum, and many more outside of it, appear to advocate.

Really now?

1. I know several girls who became mothers between the ages of 16 to 19. Most of them are now what many people consider "white trash", when before they had an excellent future to look forward to.

2. How many alcoholics do you know that are complete failures? Enough to agree to the generalized statement that alcoholism destroy lives (biologically, but also mentally and socially)?

3. What about career-successful cocaine addicts? How many do you know?

My point is: I don't need to know a single young parent to see a pattern of behaviour which is not good for most people.

 

I'm not sure whether you meant it this way, Remixer, but to compare young mothers with alcoholics and cocaine addicts is completely over-the top, in my opinion!

That said, my default reaction when I hear that a young girl has become pregnant is generally that it is bad news. My first thought is that, in most cases, termination is probably a better bad outcome than seeing it through.

It does vary. The term "teenager" is a wide one. If we are discussing (for example) a mature 19-year-old in a solid relationship who has chosen motherhood, I have known a number of young women who are well able to carry out the parenting responsibilities demanded of them, and I am happy for them.

Many teenagers who become pregnant aren't in that situation, though. I have heard that the human brain doesn't fully mature until around the mid-20s and some of these kids seem to me to be behind the curve on achieving maturity. There are many teenagers who I wouldn't trust to look after a puppy, let alone a baby. Many are unwilling to sacrifice anything and have an attitude of entitlement. These are the ones who have the baby and then expect to continue with a full social life while their parents take on the burden of child-rearing. In these cases, their pregnancy and the subsequent decision to have the child is a sequence of "bad choices", in my opinion.

I repeat, however, that there are people who are well able to take on the commitment and who parenthood suits. I suspect that they are in the minority. As an acid test, I'd ask whether the teenager is fully capable of looking after herself and has demonstrated the capacity to take responsibility. The other part of the equation is the father. To what extent is he willing and able to take up his responsibilities?

In either case, I am not suggesting that they need to be entirely self-supporting. None of us are, and a supportive network of friends and relatives is a great thing to have. To be a parent, however, demands more than the desire to give birth.

 

What do you consider a successful parent? Those who raise their children to be financially successful or those who raise their children to be happy? Not suggesting those two are mutually exclusive, but I hope you get my point. Financial security does not equal happiness. Culturally speaking, the happiest children I've ever seen are in Africa.

 

I haven't compared them.

It was simply about the method with which we/I make general statements (i.e. generalizations).

 

I didn't think you were trying to make a direct comparison.

But... I don't agree that the two examples you give as a basis for applying your generalization to young mothers - work in the way you are intending. You can make a generalization like that about alcoholics and cocaine addicts because alcohol and cocaine are destructive substances overall. Case studies back up that generalization.

But having a child is not like ingesting a destructive substance.

Now, if you had made the generalization that insecure and troubled people who drink alcohol or take cocaine are more likely to develop an addiction, you could have brought the generalization closer to the one you are trying to make about young, single mothers but it would still be an apples to oranges comparison.

Addicts don't derive anything positive from their addiction (well, even that could be argued, but not here)

Parenthood, on the other hand, even for the young, immature and inexperienced, can provide opportunities for personal grown, which in turn, can be passed back to the child. Maturity can be gained pretty quickly when the need for it arises.

I'm sure you weren't considering this in such fine detail when you posted.

 

No, I wasn't considering every nook and crook of the issue at hand.

Regardless: there are large numbers of socially-accepted, well-behaved and "successful" individuals who (in their closet) are really alcoholics and/or cocaine addicts.

Hell, as a teenager I met many, many dozens of that type. Most people wouldn't consider them failures.

It doesn't change that their behaviour is not an example of responsible thinking, and may (likely) cause harm to others at some stage. I see the same issues with young parents ("harm" in this case would be poor parenting, poor schooling and hardly being a role model for the child(ren) to look up to).

 

I'm one of 7 children. My mom is the most fulfilled, happy woman I've ever seen. She's invested her life in her children and the return on that investment is beyond estimation. I don't think there's a better investment a woman could make than putting her love and life forth for her children. In fact, I don't think there's any better investment than living your life to serve and love others.

 

Addiction is a progressive affliction. It can't be maintained at a static level indefinitely. I suppose a very motivated and resourceful addict can keep his head above ruination for a good long time, but it depends entirely on the individual, how long he's been using, the level and frequency at which he uses, and the rate of progression. I suspect they're aren't many who can hide it for more than 10 years or so. If you continually use, it gets ya eventually. Large numbers of addicts co-managing success and addiction? Nah. If you've known any closet addicts and alcoholics, I suspect what you've seen is a photoshopped image of their lives at a given time - not a reflection of where they've been, where they are, or where they're going.

But this is wildly off topic.

Granted, teenagers and young adults (under say age 25?) are more likely to make poor decisions based on a lack of maturity and experience but it doesn't necessarily mean that those decisions will result in harm. Parenthood, as I've tried to explain to you, spares no one when it comes to the potential for fucking it up but neither does it prevent anyone from the potential to raise children with a modicum of success.

It's not so much about reaching a certain "acceptable" age or having made the proper financial preparations but you are right, what it is about is maturity. But the maturity required to raise healthy children is not some gift handed down from the heavens when you turn 25. I've known plenty of full grown adults who remain childish and immature despite their parental responsibilities.

And I've known many young single woman and couples who, if they didn't have an abundance of maturity when they started out, certainly grabbed onto it quickly.

You can't just lump everyone into your one size fits all generalizations. We are all individuals and we all deserve better than that.

 

Hey, not all teenagers make reckless and irresponsible decisions.

 

I think we've covered the fact that though they may be more prone to, as a segment of society, some of them make better decisions than their counterparts.
Hopefully, the matter is put to rest, but you can never tell around here.

 

Yes they do. Some teenagers don't make decisions that not only impact the rest of their life, but the life of a new born person as well.

Hell even adults make stupid decisions. It's called being human.

 

pshh sounds like a boring time of some of the best years of your life.

 

Yeah, I have no real interest to continue on the drug addiction / alcoholism issue.

Come on, I've covered that already. You know I'm making generalizations. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Why does that have to be explained to every single advocate of individualism?

The issue is not whether all teenagers are reckless and irresponsible, but the majority of teenagers who are.

Besides, we're all familiar with the culture of individualist ego-centrism in our Western societies. Anyone remember Casey Anthony?

My issue here simply lies with supporting the notion of young parenthood. It shouldn't be supported, unless one is certain the teenager in question has the right environment, which I doubt most have.

Just to throw in another not well-thought-through example: Out of the girls that became mothers during the age of 14 to 17, with partners in a similar age when the event happened, how many (in %) would you think still have their original partners around?