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How much should lifestyle (non-medical) be considered in transplant situations?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Borla, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    When you only control for medical need, there are 85,000 too few kidneys.

    So, no matter how distasteful it is, we are forced to use more information than just that until the number of donor organs match the medical need.

    It's like saying you have $1000 worth of bills due this month, and only $150. You can say "well ALL the bills need paid", or "I can't decide which is the most important bill due", or "I should pay them all". But until you find a way to get that other $850, or reduce your bills by $850, or some combination, all the bills simply aren't getting paid. And you are forced to allocate that $150 somewhere if you want to pay any of them.
     
  2. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    First: Thug lyfe!

    Only way that upstanding citizen would have contributed to society is if he was an organ donor.

    ...

    Also: The only way to win the "who deserves what" game is not to play. It should be first come, first serve based on pure go/no-go transplant science. Anything else is gonna get socioeconomic-stratified / race-ified / age-ified.

    Everybody dying has a Good Reason (TM) to skip ahead, amiright?

    Tough shit.

    ...

    Let's say I had a family member that had a transplant. They waited many, many years and went through a lot of hell to get there. Lotsa meds. Lotsa bills. Lotsa suffering.

    And let's say the hospital installed said organ incorrectly, the rotting hardware nearly poisoned said family member to death and then the hospital had to do another emergency procedure to remove said dead organ.

    Take a guess on whether or not they got to keep their spot in the transplant line.

    Tough shit.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    While it may seem a waste to 'give' a donated organ to a street thug, an older person who doesn't have many years left, someone who refuses to change to healthy lifestyle, etc., what Plan9 posted (and others have also posted) is the only fair way to determine who gets the organ.

    Trying to establish "fair" criteria would be a nightmare. What would the 'cut-off' age be? How extensive would the criminal record have to be? How unhealthy would the lifestyle have to be? How would "future positive contributions to society" be determined?
     
  4. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Alternatively, we could let those on the transplant list step into the Thunderdome.

    Two men enter... one man leaves with a kidney.
     
  5. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    When determining medical need, or the likelihood of successful surgery, they are factoring in age and healthy/unhealthy lifestyle already, fwiw.
     
  6. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Really? I've seen a few old folks with numerous health complications get on the list. I'm sure some are using these factors but clearly not all.
     
  7. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    In the case in the OP, they originally wouldn't let him on the list. Part of it was because of his unhealthy lifestyle, they felt he wouldn't follow the post-transplant protocol.

    Generally speaking, if you are an alcohol abuser, you have to be sober for several months before you'll be accepted. Same with IV drug abusers.

    To be clear, I'm not saying "if you did this to yourself" you are left off. That's not true. You could've wrecked your body by drug/alcohol abuse 10 years ago, and you'll get on the list. But if you don't have at least several months of clean living, they will not generally let you on the list. The reasoning is that you will just destroy the new organ.



    See the bottom several paragraphs of this link:

    If someone abuses their body, will they still be given a transplant?



    What I'm reading in many posts in this thread is that that lifestyle shouldn't be taken into account? Even if someone is still binge drinking daily, they should get a new liver? Even if they are a chronic known drug abuser, they get a new organ? As long as the medical need is there? That part I think I disagree with.
     
  8. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Interesting.

    Health concerns were clearly not part of the equation with the people I knew based on age and, uh, let's call it durability. If there was math based on success and longevity, those involved didn't do it and approved the transplants anyway.

    Then again, we live in a country largely comprised of obese people that will likely live until they're 90, so I guess 1950s Healthy (TM) is considered abnormal these days.

    ...

    I'm not saying that lifestyle shouldn't be taken into account but that it provides that initial crack that allows erosion over time. Because organ transplants are such a human thing and the institutions and companies that make them happen are operated by the almighty dollar and the fetid worm of politics, there is room for problems to develop. I've seen enough dystopian sci-fi flicks to know how the rich will eventually keep all the organs for themselves, hovering above us in their luxury motherships.

    ...

    On the other hand, I'd say the pick-and-choose system doesn't go far enough.

    There is no way anybody morbidly obese or over 68 should get a transplant. Wasteful.

    Do it for the children. So they can take gangsta selfies and wrap a car around a telephone pole.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  9. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    Whether I'm stating it clearly or not, I'm not necessarily arguing for any specific rules or solutions.

    I'm just trying to point out that "medical need" as it is enacted today isn't really JUST "medical need". It already includes lifestyle and other factors.

    I'm mainly saying that it is one of the hardest things I can imagine having to choose criteria for. It's basically the literal version of the "what if your wife and your brother were both hanging off a cliff and you could only save one?" scenario. We have 100k people who need the 15k organs available. Who you gonna save? Heavy stuff, and very, very open to abuse and influence once you start trying to apply general/broad rules to it.




    So I was partially just trying to bring attention to the issue. And partially trying to spark a discussion here that actually required some thoughtful posting. :D
     
  10. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    Indeed. And stop posting before I've finished my 15 minutes of live editing.

    It's in my contract, Borla. It's in my contract.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    There are many factors that could? should? be considerred when selecting a potential donated organ recipient. The major questions remain: How will the qualifications be determined, and who will determine them?

    This is a serious gray area. A persons position--for either side--could change dramatically if a situation arose that effected them on a personal level.
     
  12. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I stumbled across an article today that reminded me of this thread.

    Organ Transplant Changes Reduce Wait Times For Kidney Patients « CBS Chicago


    Cliffnotes - The amount of people waiting for an organ transplant continues to grow, as need outpaces availability.

    There is a new federal policy that has enacted a couple of changes.

    1) They are trying to add in consideration for the ages of the donors and recipients. Basically it seems they are working to keep both ages within a 15 yr window of each other. I'm guessing this keeps younger patients from getting older kidneys then needing another transplant down the road, thus working to reduce need long term.

    2) They are "starting the clock" for people on the wait list retroactive to when they started dialysis.




    This is "National Donate Life Month". If you aren't registered as an organ donor, please consider changing that in the next two days! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  13. redravin

    redravin Cynical Optimist Donor

    Location:
    North
    I keep hoping we will get the process of growing organs down to a cheap simple process sooner rather than later.
    It would make all of this moot.