#F--kFirst

snowy · Nov 7, 2014

Before you consider the questions, enjoy this piece from Dan Savage.

Should the Duggar Girls #FuckFirst?

Yes, they should. Duggar boys, too. And so should you.

by DAN SAVAGE
Full disclosure: I’m a dirty sodomite and no one—NO ONE—should listen to anything I have to say about anything. Ever. I can write whatever I want, of course, because this is a free country. (Maybe a little too free!) But there’s one thing I’m not allowed to write about: the Duggars.

People like me shouldn’t even think thoughts about good people like the Duggars.

Which is funny because the Duggars—children included—think thoughts about people like me.

The Duggars, for those of you who don’t watch TV, are the stars of 19 Kids and Counting, one of the top-rated reality shows on television. Jim Bob Duggar and his wife, Michelle Duggar, the couple with the 19 kids, are hardcore fundamentalist Christians and members of the Quiverfull movement.

“Quiverfull members aspire to have as many children as possible, arguing that to win the culture wars, the faithful must literally ‘out-populate the enemy,’” as Amanda Marcotte explained on Slate. “It’s also a ‘patriarchal cult’ that teaches that men are ‘leaders, teachers, initiators, protectors, and providers’ and women are helpmeets who serve men by being ‘submissive and yielding.’ Submission is also demanded of children, particularly daughters.”
The Duggars, thanks to their TV show, are the world’s most famous Quiverfulling family. Their prior claim to fame involved a swiped family photograph and a parody motivational poster. (“VAGINA. It’s not a clown car.”)

Anyway, last April, a copy of People was sitting on the table in the waiting area at the place where I get my hair cut. There was a photo on the cover of Jill Duggar, one of Jim Bob and Michelle’s nine daughters, holding the hand of her fiancé. “A DUGGAR ENGAGED,” screamed the headline. “THEIR EXTREME COURTSHIP RULES!”

I snapped a picture, added a mildly snarky comment, and tweeted it out.

That was at 2:37 in the afternoon. Within four hours, a post detailing the “creepy viciousness” of my tweet went up on Twitchy, a right-wing website that targets liberals and progressives on Twitter.

“Jill Duggar, one of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar’s 19 children, is engaged to be married,” wrote an anonymous Twitchy staffer. “But Dan Savage isn’t wishing them well. No, the guy behind the ‘It Gets Better’ campaign is much too busy obsessing over their virginity… Jill and her fiancé have chosen to wait until their wedding night to consummate their relationship. In Savage’s world, that’s not just uncool—it’s downright shameful and worthy of derision.”
Twitchy’s outraged followers—the only kind of followers they have—blew up my Twitter feed for a week.

So what was this hateful, vicious, shameful thing I’d said in my tweet? What was that snarky comment? Just this: “I’m guessing #FuckFirst isn’t one of the rules.”

Fuck first is one of my rules—and it’s not even a rule. It’s a suggestion. I encourage couples to “fuck first” on Valentine’s Day, wedding days, and anniversaries. Fuck before that romantic meal or wedding reception because you’ll be too exhausted/full/drunk to fuck after.

I honestly couldn’t see what was so vicious about my tweet, and as a Catholic, I’m prone to guilt and self-recrimination. I didn’t mock Jill for waiting to fuck her fiancé until her wedding night. I was only highlighting the fact that my rules are different than the Duggars’ rules. We can safely assume that Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar would not only agree, but would like to have that fact widely known.

For a week, angry Twitchy readers scolded me for having the nerve to even think about the Duggars. More than one said I was bitter because a nice girl like Jill would never marry a sad, angry man like me. Twitchy readers who knew I was gay called me a rude and filthy cocksucker and told me that I should leave the Duggars alone and stick to sucking rude and filthy cocks.
What? A guy can’t multitask?

To go on television and to appear on magazine covers—to put your family at the center of a reality show—is to invite comment. Real housewives know it when they sign up, top chefs know it when they sign up, and the Duggars knew it when they signed up.

And the Duggars aren’t just on TV. They’re proselytizing on TV.

“At the heart of this reality-show depiction of ‘extreme motherhood’ is a growing conservative Christian emphasis on the importance of women submitting to their husbands and fathers,” Kathryn Joyce wrote in Newsweek. “Fans of TV’s novel large families should not overlook their comprehensive ideology that argues that family planning and feminism are cultural scourges to be eradicated.”

Family planning—access to birth control—and feminism aren’t the only things the Duggars would like to see eradicated. Their eldest son, Josh Duggar, works for the Family Research Council (FRC), one of 38 organizations designated as antigay hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. This fall, Jim Bob and Michelle and various little Duggars made appearances at campaign rallies for rabidly antigay, antichoice Republican candidates. They stumped in Kansas for Pat Roberts and Sam Brownback, in Arkansas for Tom Cotton, and around the country for antichoice measures. Michelle Duggar recorded a transphobic robocall against a proposed LGBT civil rights measure in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

So, yeah, the Duggar family—politically active TV stars with antigay and antichoice agendas—are thinking thoughts about people like me. And they’re not very nice thoughts: They’re actively working to harm families like mine. I think that gives me the right to think thoughts about them.

I had pretty much forgotten about the whole Twitter/Twitchy blowup until I went to get a haircut again a week ago. That’s when I saw it: sitting there, on the table by the door, a month-old copy of Us Weekly with Jill and her sister Jessa Duggar on the cover. The headline: “THE DUGGARS: OUR RULES FOR LOVE & SEX!”

These people sure do love their rules.

The Duggar Family Rules for Girl Children recapped: Dad “auditions” potential boyfriends for you. (Okaaaay.) Your parents read all your texts. All dates are chaperoned. No hugging allowed. No holding hands until after you’re engaged. (That picture of Jill Duggar on the cover of People holding her fiancé’s hand? Quiverporn.) Your first kiss takes place at the altar. Duggar girls are always clothed “from neck to knee to avoid [arousing] men.” Also: no dancing (“encourages ‘sensual’ feelings,” warns Mom), no romance novels, no beaches.

“Waiting ensures there’s no regrets,” Michelle Duggar told Us Weekly. Marriage counselors, divorce lawyers, and advice columnists weren’t asked to comment, but if we were, here’s what we would have told Us Weekly: “Ha-ha-ha-ha! Our offices, conference rooms, and columns are packed with people who waited and have regrets.”

And once a Duggar girl is married, says Mom, she is never allowed to say no to sex. “Duggar women don’t get headaches,” Michelle told Us. “You always need to be available when he calls.” And if you’re not always available—if you do get a headache, or you’re just not in the mood one night, or if turns out that your husband prefers Dad’s auditions—then you’re to blame when your husband cheats on you.

No dating rules for Duggar boys are mentioned in Us Weekly. I’m sure the Duggars have rules for their boys—they have rules for everything—but Quiverfull followers and other fundamentalist Christians aren’t as concerned with keeping their male children “pure.”A girl, though? A girl’s value is entirely tied to her virginity. (Note to Twitchy staff: Looking for the guy who’s obsessing about the virginity of the Duggar girls? Check out the guy who’s “auditioning” their boyfriends.)

Those are some of the Duggars’ rules. Now here are some of mine: Don’t wait until your wedding night to fuck your fiancé for the first time. Sexual incompatibility leads to divorce, so it’s a good idea to establish the shit out of sexual compatibility before marriage. Don’t marry young. People who marry young are much likelier to wind up divorced. And don’t marry evangelical or fundamentalist Christians, as they have higher-than-average divorce rates, according to a study conducted by private Christian school Baylor University. (“Despite their strong pro-family values, evangelical Christians have higher than average divorce rates—in fact, [they are] more likely to be divorced than Americans who claim no religion.”)

And don’t marry into a family like the Duggars. Quiverfull families, despite how the Duggars come across on their reality show, are actually pretty scary in reality.

Almost all Quiverfullers are Dominionists. They believe the United States should be under the dominion of conservative Christian men—they’ve had it with all these Buddhist and Jewish presidents!—and that we should all have to live under biblical law. The Quiverfull/Dominionist plan is to out-breed, and some day outvote, all the secularists, liberals, and non-Dominionist Christians who oppose theocracy.

The Quiverfull movement takes its name from a Bible passage—because of course it does—and the verse makes it clear what people like the Duggars are having all those children for:

Like arrows in the hand of a warrior
So are the children of one’s youth.
Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them. (Psalm 127)

So not only do Quiverfullers want to impose theocracy on the United States, they think of their children as weapons toward that end. Like I said: pretty scary.

Quick thought experiment: If 19 Kids and Counting were about a Muslim family who were as politically radical as the Duggars—if their daughters appeared on the cover of People and Us in hijabs, if they were part of a movement that viewed children as weapons (even metaphorically), if one of the Duggar kids worked for CAIR—the right-wingers at Twitchy and Fox News and the Family Research Council would be attacking the Duggars, not defending them from harmless snark or offering them cushy jobs.

But the right wing doesn’t have a problem with the Duggars: They’re the right color, they worship the right God, and they want to impose the right brand of theocracy.

While I’m prone to obsessing over worst-case scenarios—I’m Catholic—I honestly don’t think we have much to fear from Quiverfullers or Dominionists. Quiverfull moms are abandoning the movement (and blogging about it), and their kids will rebel (not all, but enough). Still, liberals and progressives and even sane conservatives might want to have a kid or two, just to be on the safe side.

Jill and Jessa Duggar aren’t children. They’re adult women in their 20s who consented to make their sexual choices—their (not entirely free) decisions to wait, the vetting of their boyfriends, their courtship rituals, the exact timing of their first kisses, their plans to “get busy” after their marriages—the focus of a reality television show. They’ve both discussed their sexual choices with national magazines. That opens Jill and Jessa’s choices up to general discussion, and the conversation isn’t limited to people who agree with them. As we are not yet ruled by Dominionists, Twitchy, even those of us who disagree with the Duggar agenda—those of us who are annoyed by the way their lifestyle is being shoved down our throats—are free to comment.

Even snark.

So the Duggars believe that women should be virgins on their wedding nights. I happen to disagree. I think women should fuck first. Men, too. It’s too late for Jill and Jessa: They’re both already married and they were virgins on their wedding nights. Good for them. Honestly and sincerely: I wish both of them well. I hope their marriages are long and happy ones. I hope they beat the odds on the sexual-compatibility, young-marriage, and fundy-Christian fronts and that neither winds up divorced.

I also hope they abandon the Quiverfull movement.

And I have hopes for all the unmarried little Duggars still being pimped on television and
dragged to campaign rallies: I hope they all get out from under the thumbs of their crazy, controlling, virginity-obsessed parents. I hope they can one day go to the beach and dance. I hope they fuck first. And I hope the gay Duggar—which will probably be one of the boys (science: The more sons a woman has, the likelier the younger ones are to be gay)—doesn’t suffer too much when he finally comes out to his crazy parents. I also hope he gets married to a nice man someday—but after fucking him first, of course.

Always fuck first.
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So there are a lot of things to discuss in relation to this piece. Address them as you see fit.
Did you fuck first, or was your virginity important to you? Yes, I know this is TFP, and we're likely to skew one way. How do you feel about people waiting for their wedding night to make it "special"? What do you think about people putting so much importance on virginity as a state? How about the idea that women should make themselves available for their men at all times? What are some other things in Savage's piece that you found interesting? Do you fuck before big events, as he suggests?

Obviously, we fucked first. We lived together for five years before we got married. It was important to me to know my husband well. Plus, waiting until your wedding night is the worst idea in the world, and I say that as someone who is married. Losing one's virginity has the potential to be painful, uncomfortable, and horrifically awkward (OMG IS IT IN YET?!!?! NO?! WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE?!). I did it a long time ago in a situation I was comfortable in, and even then, it was still painful and awkward, despite the best efforts for it to be otherwise. I would NOT want that to take place on my wedding night. On my wedding night, I was exhausted, and though we did have sex, it was because we were so tired we weren't going to get to sleep otherwise.

I was not raised in a family where "purity" was a concept. I remember watching my friends' families in high school, some of whom were nearly as conservative as the Duggars, and wondering what the hell was going on. It seemed really perverse and gross for someone's father to have a say about their sex life in that fashion. In my view, the concept of "purity" is firmly tied together with the idea that women are chattel to men; if women are not "pure" when they go to get married (a financial transaction), then their value as chattel is lessened.

I'm not constantly available for sex, and neither is he. And that's okay. I don't hold it against him, and he doesn't hold it against me. Instead, we go take care of our own needs as we see fit. I'm totally going to take his advice to fuck ahead of time from now on, though.

I don't judge the Duggars for their choices, but I will say that they skeeve me out a lot more than Dan Savage's choices.

One part of the article that I find very interesting and wish to emphasize; others may wish to discuss it further:

Quick thought experiment: If 19 Kids and Counting were about a Muslim family who were as politically radical as the Duggars—if their daughters appeared on the cover of People and Us in hijabs, if they were part of a movement that viewed children as weapons (even metaphorically), if one of the Duggar kids worked for CAIR—the right-wingers at Twitchy and Fox News and the Family Research Council would be attacking the Duggars, not defending them from harmless snark or offering them cushy jobs.

But the right wing doesn’t have a problem with the Duggars: They’re the right color, they worship the right God, and they want to impose the right brand of theocracy.
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Levite · Nov 7, 2014

My mother always told me never to marry someone I had never slept with, or someone I had not lived with for at least six months already. It was sage advice, and I took it to heart, and found it of great benefit.

I never understood the value on virginity. Sex is something that takes practice to get good at, and I was never interested in trying to build a whole relationship while at the same time trying to figure out the foundational basics of fucking. Even when I myself was a virgin (lo these many many years ago) I wasn't interested in sleeping with a virgin-- I already knew I didn't know shit about fucking, so why would I want to find someone else who didn't know shit about fucking, when I could find someone who'd already done some fucking and could presumably teach me some things? I mean, you don't get to be NBA quality by finding someone to teach you who's never actually played any b-ball-- you find someone who's got game, who's been up and down that court and knows all the moves, and you get them to teach you and play with you.

Additionally, of course, I had the good fortune to be raised with theological sophistication: I knew enough not to take any Biblical or traditional text at literal face value, but to research and ask questions. I found that there is little basis in Jewish tradition for the idea that male virginity should be preserved for marriage, and actually much less basis than I would've thought for the idea that female virginity at marriage is a requirement. There are also various sources in the tradition that praise erotic pleasure and commend sexual intercourse as a means of deep intimacy. So I decided to value these and observe them, because it seemed clear to me that the extreme valuation of virginity was both a cultural artefact from a part of the world I did not live in, and from an era when both marriage was extremely early and contracted chiefly as a financial arrangement. But never for a moment did I believe that God would place some sort of value on chastity until marriage; I could well believe that God would wish us to express our sexuality in ways respectful of others and not dangerous to our health or the health of others, since I already am willing to believe that God values us treating other people decently and cherishing the gift of life He has given us. But I'm pretty sure that if He didn't want us to fuck, He wouldn't have made it feel so good or be so emotionally connective.

Having an active and vigorous sex life prior to marriage seems to me to be the best way to ensure an active and vigorous sex life after marriage. And since a good and healthy sex life is integral to the health of a long-term relationship, it seems to me that staying a virgin until you're married is a good way to undermine the future health of your marriage. Which, in the end, is what my mother was trying to tell me. And she was right.

genuinemommy · Nov 7, 2014

My husband and I lived together for 2 years before we tied the knot.
We conceived and lost a pregnancy together before we were engaged.
We were friends first, then fuck buddies, then realized there was something really great there that we didn't want to lose.

So, yes, I will be telling my daughter to wait until she's mature enough and educated enough to know what could get her in trouble (STDs, unwanted pregnancy), but by all means know that person through and through before tying the knot.

redravin · Nov 7, 2014

A point that he makes that kind of slips by is don't get married young.
As someone who did just that, I can attest to his wisdom.
You grow up to be very different people than the ones you married and we lived together first with a lot of fucking because we were teenagers.
Every time I see young people getting married (and it happens all the time on the more orthodox side of Jadzia's family) I just feel bad for them.
I know their religion is going to force them to stay together and the girls are going to have to have babies no matter what their dreams might be.
So no matter what life is like down the road they will stick it out because of the kids, their faith and their parents.

I also liked his suggestion about fucking first on special occasions because if you try to do after dinner you'll be too drunk or full.
I'd never thought of it like that but it's a great suggestion.

genuinemommy · Nov 7, 2014

Yeah, not marrying young is good advice.

But I must point out I have a couple of friends who were married absurdly young (14&17, 14&15) and they are still together, pursuing individual careers, and entirely successful. One couple is completely independent of their extended family while the other couple lives next-door to family and depends on grandparents for child care. Their children are in high school while my family is just getting started... They are certainly exceptions to the usual way things go, but it's incredible how a little family planning can make even a very young marriage successful.

snowy · Nov 7, 2014

genuinemommy said: ↑

Yeah, not marrying young is good advice.

But I must point out I have a couple of friends who were married absurdly young (14&17, 14&15) and they are still together, pursuing individual careers, and entirely successful. One couple is completely independent of their extended family while the other couple lives next-door and depends on grandparents for child care. Their children are in high school while my family is just getting started... They are certainly exceptions to the usual way things go, but it's incredible how a little family planning can make even a very young marriage successful.
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Those are pretty notable exceptions.

Most of the data suggests that marriages are more successful if people are over 25. Generally, women over 25 have higher educational attainment and better economic prospects, meaning their marriage is more secure and more likely to succeed. I think resources play a huge role in a successful marriage and family. It's hard to have and care for children and for each other if the people involved don't possess the economic, social, emotional, or mental resources necessary.

Speed_Gibson · Nov 7, 2014

Speaking of age, any woman under 25 would have a slim chance with me on that whole"anything serious beyond friends" thing at least initially. Not saying it could never happen, but there would have to be some deep common interests like photography, proper films such as the Marx Brothers and Chaplin, or the like.
I work with kids 18-25 now and one of my first thoughts when I first meet them is along the lines "they are so damn young". One of my co-workers today was born the year I graduated high school. Gives me more of the "why the hell am I here?" thoughts along with the "you people are so young".

And no I am not that much older, but anyone who has read my posts here for a decent amount of time could probably tell you in many ways I feel more connected to the generation now 60-70+ rather than the kids with the fancy smartphones and active life on social media sites.

Herculite · Nov 8, 2014

But the right wing doesn’t have a problem with the Duggars: They’re the right color, they worship the right God, and they want to impose the right brand of theocracy.
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I'm as right wing as they come on TFP anyways, and I have a problem with the Duggars

He hits on something interesting though it wasn't his target exactly. Children are a weapon, and a weapon of minority groups. I think there is something in the human genome that says "if you are a minority, out breed them!" I expect to see bigger families more common in the white community starting in about 15 years, and it won't be a movement, it won't be people like the Duggars, it will be a natural reaction to being out numbered.

fflowley · Nov 8, 2014

"Fuck first is one of my rules—and it’s not even a rule. It’s a suggestion. I encourage couples to “fuck first” on Valentine’s Day, wedding days, and anniversaries. Fuck before that romantic meal or wedding reception because you’ll be too exhausted/full/drunk to fuck after."

I will probably not remember this article beyond today, but the advice above seems very sound. I don't know why I had never thought of it before. We are going to institute this in our marriage ASAP!

snowy · Nov 8, 2014

Dan Savage is full of good advice. I'm glad I started reading Savage Love as a teenager. It definitely helped shape my worldview and gave me lots of information!

Chris Noyb · Nov 8, 2014

When I first started reading the Savage article, my reaction was this guy isn't making a mountain out of a molehill, he's making a mountain range out of a tiny pebble.

Virginity is a personal decision. If people want to wait until marriage, that's up to them. I don't think it's a good idea. Sexual compatibility is important, and finding out that you're on opposite ends of the scales AFTER you're married would suck.

redravin · Nov 8, 2014

Chris Noyb said: ↑

When I first started reading the Savage article, my reaction was this guy isn't making a mountain out of a molehill, he's making a mountain range out of a tiny pebble.

Virginity is a personal decision. If people want to wait until marriage, that's up to them. I don't think it's a good idea. Sexual compatibility is important, and finding out that you're on opposite ends of the scales AFTER you're married would suck.
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I think his broader point actually wasn't about virginity.
He points out that all of this is his opinion and he really doesn't care if anyone agrees with him.
The problem is the Duggers not only disagree, they actively work to make that disagreement law.

I see that as a pretty big issue since I agree with Savage and having people like the Duggers and Duck Dynasty made into pop culture icons is kind of creepy.

Herculite · Nov 8, 2014

If you haven't seen this one...

The picture from below was golfing before they were doing the show.

Lindy · Nov 9, 2014

I had to do a little research to even know who the Duggars are.

I've been a Fuck Firster for a very long time. I first fucked on my fifteenth birthday, which was 23 years ago tomorrow. I would have been first fucked a little earlier than that, but that guy popped off before the first fuck could be consummated.
I agree about the holiday and occasion fucks. I just don't enjoy sex if I'm overstuffed or drunk. I know some people like drunk fucking, but I'm not one of them.

I do think that some of the advocates of early fucking tend to disregard some of the possible consequences that really do happen, like pregnancy, for instance. I'm proud that I've never gotten pregnant, never had an abortion or any STDs in 20+ years of pretty much constant fucking with numerous partners. Some of tht was, I'm sure, just plain dumb luck.

My mom and dad, a couple of hippies, were very open about sex, and the main "rule" that I remember them telling me was that sex was never to be a weapon, and respect others' relationships.

Sadly, my sex drive led me to violate that more than once.

I'm looking forward to "Fuck First" tomorrow morning on my 38th birthday. And then go out with my guy and my parents, who came to visit for my birthday, for a good brunch buffet.

After I work up an appetite.

MeltedMetalGlob · Aug 26, 2018

Levite said: ↑

I never understood the value on virginity. Sex is something that takes practice to get good at, and I was never interested in trying to build a whole relationship while at the same time trying to figure out the foundational basics of fucking. Even when I myself was a virgin (lo these many many years ago) I wasn't interested in sleeping with a virgin-- I already knew I didn't know shit about fucking, so why would I want to find someone else who didn't know shit about fucking, when I could find someone who'd already done some fucking and could presumably teach me some things? I mean, you don't get to be NBA quality by finding someone to teach you who's never actually played any b-ball-- you find someone who's got game, who's been up and down that court and knows all the moves, and you get them to teach you and play with you.
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This.

Also, I believe women have a natural instinct for detecting virginity in a male and will automatically reject such desperate specimens.

May I present as evidence, in a nutshell, the first 30+ years of my life:

Street Pattern · Nov 10, 2014

Fuck first is one of my rules—and it’s not even a rule. It’s a suggestion. I encourage couples to “fuck first” on Valentine’s Day, wedding days, and anniversaries. Fuck before that romantic meal or wedding reception because you’ll be too exhausted/full/drunk to fuck after.
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My wife got this rule from her sister.

rogue49 · Nov 17, 2014

fuck first, fuck often

snowy · Nov 17, 2014

rogue49 said: ↑

fuck first, fuck often
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Can confirm: it keeps everyone happy.

Lindy · Nov 27, 2014

fflowley said: ↑

"Fuck first is one of my rules—and it’s not even a rule. It’s a suggestion. I encourage couples to “fuck first” on Valentine’s Day, wedding days, and anniversaries. Fuck before that romantic meal or wedding reception because you’ll be too exhausted/full/drunk to fuck after."

I will probably not remember this article beyond today, but the advice above seems very sound. I don't know why I had never thought of it before. We are going to institute this in our marriage ASAP!
Click to expand...

Love's lustful labour found. Facile fucking fun first. Formidable football will follow fulsome family feast of featured fowl. Abundant alliteration aggresively affected.

snowy · Nov 27, 2014

Yup, checked that one off my list today.

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