Cosmetic Surgery and Just Cause

Cosmetic surgery.

Not in reference to using it for reconstructing people's bodies/faces who have been in accidents or fires - I generally consider that to be a fully justifiable cause. This discussion concerns the often-controversial topic of cosmetic surgery for the purpose of looking more attractive for various personal, social, or emotional reasons - and there are indeed many and varied reasons.

One reason, and the most commonly accepted or perceived reason perhaps, is to increase a person's internal feelings of confidence, self-worth, validity, etc. In other words, the emotionally-oriented reason. Personally I think this can be legitimate, with the severe and important caveat that people tend to start thinking that changing their appearance is the only thing they will have to do, and then they will suddenly just become happy and successful and content - a thought fallacy that can lead into the dreaded never-ending spiral of obsessive cosmetic surgery, various forms of depression, social withdrawal, and other emotional/psychological issues.

I think another reason is to escape ridicule. Society is inherently mean to those who don't measure up - it's a force of nature and will likely never change, no matter how many bleeding-heart "anti-bullying" campaigns are started on the internet. Is it better to just stand there without changing and take the shit and abuse for years and years on end, while people who were born luckier get to focus their energy on succeeding in life while being supported and approved of the entire time instead of expending their mental and emotional energy on dealing with constant negative input and lack of support? Many would argue that simply stepping out of the line of fire by removing the target of ridicule is preferable. Fix what is making you the target and then simply move on with life. One example would be this young teen getting a nose-job to fix her nose so she can stop suffering verbal and emotional abuse at the hands of... Well, pretty much everyone: http://www.today.com/video/today/53971923#53971923

And yet one more reason is one that is less reactive and more proactive - where there may or may not be some actual perceivable deficiency, but a person chooses to make alterations to their appearance for the sake of easing their journey through life (it's been proven through many studies that taller, attractive, physically balanced and symmetrical people are almost universally approved of and favored more, paid more, hired more often, agreed with more, and generally have easier lives then less-attractive people in most social aspects due to inherent social privilege). In a sense, consciously choosing to use cosmetic surgery as a deliberate form of evolution or adaptation to one's surroundings (society and its ideals) in a calculated, non-emotionally-based, deliberate bid to manipulate the people around them into treating them better and subconsciously giving them automatic advantages in most situations. This often espouses the argument that this manipulation is perfectly justified because if these same shallow people would abuse or simply ignore a person for being less attractive, then manipulating them into treating said person better is justified if they're too dumb to prevent their base urges from dictating how they treat and value people.

I suppose an aversion towards cosmetic surgery could come from various arguments as well - the Zen argument has good points about inner balance and locus of control. Or the argument that trial by fire builds character (as long as you can survive the abuse without off'ing yourself in your teen years). Or the argument that band-aiding the symptoms with artificial methods is not fixing the overall problem. Or my personal favorite, the "God made ya that way and that's how yer supposed to be so don't be changin' nothin' or tryin' to rise above yer assigned place in life" argument, most often espoused by people who like John Deere hats and NASCAR and often wear forest camouflage in inappropriate social situations (which is to say, of course, any social situation) and think the world is six thousand years old.

What do you think? Do you have any other reasons for justifying or opposing this practice?
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Also, in case you're wondering, I am actually going somewhere with this.
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I tend to be of the 'people should be able to modify their body whatever way makes them happy' camp.
It's pretty much like tattoos and piercings to me.
Any changes people want to make are cool with me.

 

I generally agree with you here. People's bodies are their own to modify, augment, imrove or even destroy. And furthermore, on a naturally-uneven genetic playing field, cosmetic surgery can really be a game-changer for someone who was otherwise going to naturally be unjustly ignored or automatically excluded.

However, what is your logic/justification? I mean, some people would do it as a form of self-expression or vanity, some would do it for respite and peace -to escape social pressures or to conform, some would do it aggresively with the specific intent of uplifting their "place" in the social hierarchy using questionably ethical principles of adaptation and social Darwinism.

Do you tend to favor some motivations and look with scorn or disapproval on others? For instance, what if you're trying to get with a person romantically, and so is another woman. So she gets breast implants or laser-lipo or some other surgery that makes her significantly more desirable and she successfully tips the scales in her favor, thus manipulating the perceptions object of your affection and "getting her foot in the door" - thus tactically eclipsing you and taking them from you?

Or if someone uses these or other modifications to lend an advantage and to manipulate your boss into promoting him/her despite your much-harder and more legitimate work? And would you be any more - or less - angry about this kind of "being denied" incident if it had been done instead by an already-"naturally-beautiful" person who was already held in higher regard than you in society? Would it feel like someone "below" you cheated and usurped your natural progressionin the ranks, so to speak?
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Cosmetic surgery is a very tricky thing. People do have different motivations for having it done. Like @othersyde said, it's not a cure-all. It can help in some cases, enhance self esteem, etc. But at some point (and I'm not sure where that point lies) where it can become an unhealthy obsession and even do more damage than good.

So, with that said - I'm fine with it to a degree - but not when it takes over someone's life. At that point I think they probably need therapy more than surgery.

 

There are also birth defects, like cleft palate, that, surely, are equally well justified grounds for surgery.

Yup. And you only get one life.

That being said, surgery is generally disdained because (given current technology) it is unlikely to help very much.

It is easy to look down on "shallow" people for treating an attractive person better than an unattractive one, but we are all, 100% of us, guilty of this. We instinctively attribute positive personality traits to more attractive people, without realizing it. We instinctively see taller men as having better leadership qualities. It would take a whole lot of consciousness and training to overcome the way we are wired.

Again, in 2014, surgery is crude, ineffective, expensive, and potentially dangerous. It can remove very specific flaws, like warts or scars, but it can't create beauty on its own. Absent some very acute problem, it's almost never a good idea.

 

I think it makes a big difference. In people's attitudes and willingness to be friendly. You also get a 'chance' to be popular, get a better job, or date who you want. Now, some people are more than a nose job away from that, but people do respond towards people society deems 'beautiful' in different ways.

*I have had one operation done in my mid 20's. I should have had it done in my early teens. Along with therapy and life coaching... Not that it would have made a lot of difference in what I ended up doing, but it would have helped. And I don't know how things would have played out.

 

I had a breast reduction Christmas 2012. It was the best decision I've ever made.

 

My youngest brother as a branding of a sun the size of a dinner plate on his back.
It's a beautiful piece and impressive as hell.
Would I do it? Not a chance but I'm glad he did for him.
Do I favor one persons motivations over another?
No.
I really don't see the difference between some guy who stretches out his earlobes with bigger and bigger gauge rings or a girl who gets a nose job.
They are manipulating their body to make it more like how they feel on the inside.

 

I was really asking if you felt the same way about more insidious, manipulative uses of cosmetic surgery, not whether it was done to make the person feel more happy about themselves or customize their bodies for stylization purposes. I mean life is crazy uneven and unequal - and a total roll of the dice - as it is, and all's fair in love and war - I can't personally fault a person for trying to get a leg up in such an unfair world by acquiring every advantage they can, and changing yourself to be more attractive certainly is far less unethical than, say, emotionally using and manipulating people, or outright extorting them or using other means of coercion, but would you consider it dishonest? Like more dishonest than - as @rogue49 pointed out - "common" visual lies such as makeup, heels, fake hair/hairpieces, colored contact lenses, etc.?

Or maybe even less dishonest because - because unlike the daily common beauty-routine and dress-up visual lies - these surgeries required effort, pain, money, and are generally permanent? Like, what you see is what you get (except in that person's offspring, of course - can't pass on fake boobs or a modified nose shape through genetics).

Yeah I mean, I kinda include them, I didn't mean to insinuate they wouldn't qualify.

I dunno man, they've done some pretty incredible things in the last 5-10 years.

So true, we're still so dependent on our lizard brains.
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I don't care if anyone has cosmetic procedures to get ahead in life. I'd do it if I thought it would work. I guess for some things it would. Bully for them for making a change. Life's not fair. Do what you can to even the playing field.

 

I guess I didn't express myself very well.
What I was trying to say is that the reasons people modify themselves don't really relevant to me.
There was a time when I put people in different categories for the reasons but over time I decided they all come from the same place.
People have a need to modify and control this meatsack we live in.

Even if it's as simple a thing as punching few holes to put jewels in or as complex as having hundreds of surgeries so you can look like your favorite video game avatar, we all do something.
There wouldn't be cults that forbid it if the idea wasn't such an underpinning of our lives.

 

Haha, I don;t think you need any cosmetic procedures to get ahead in life

I feel about the same, although some people may take it a little far, like Justin Jedlica the real-life Ken-doll with his 90+ procedures so far, and Valeria Lukyanova the real-life Barbie doll (only boobs implants, corset waist conditioning, and maybe a little lipoplasty so far I think):


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And let's not forget Anastasiya Shpagina, the real-life anime girl...


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I mean people can do whatever they want and I'm all for that - even if it means a few people Darwin'ing themselves out of the gene pool somehow or another. Even extreme cases, assuming they don't end up in the hallowed halls of horrifically failed cosmetic catastrophes, serve their purpose of getting people the attention they so desperately crave. Some people customize their cars to extreme degrees - even rebuilding them from the ground up. Some customize their houses to crazy levels, turning them into giant live-in works of art. Why can't some people do it to their bodies? It's their risk to take really, and as long as they are aware of and accept the potential consequences then let them do their thing.

[EDIT] - You know, I just re-read that line and thought about it a little more... Most religions are designed specifically to curb human nature and negative human tendencies... I wonder if that nearly-ubiquitous, intense compulsion to modify ourselves originates in our need to identify as individuals (or with a group), or if is springs more from our apparent human obsession with controlling our world, surroundings, and even our own vessels?
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I think as humans we all want to fit in somewhere, yet be unique. Look at the people you know in your own life and you will see it time and time again.

I have several friends deep into the goth subculture - I actually researched it during grad school. There is an intense need to find like-minded people in their lives, but also an intense need/desire to look a certain way, dress a certain way. It may not be understood by mainstream. But it's a comfort level for them. I know at least one who has an impressive career in the technology sector. Not that those things helped him - but they didn't prohibit him from getting ahead either. Was he just lucky? I'm not sure.

 

Some cosmetic surgeries are medically (physically) necessary and therefore beneficial.

Some cosmetic surgeries are more psychologically beneficial than physically necessary.

Some people are desperate and/or self-deluded, and will have procedures done that are of no benefit physically or psychologically. In fact, the procedures can be harmful in both areas.

Since plastic surgery is usually (but not always) elective surgery, people can find surgeons willing to do unnecessary and even harmful procedures.

 

I do have to say I really hate people who do harmful and even deadly procedures.
We had a woman die in my area because some fraud shot her up with silicon so she could have a bigger butt.
Sure, the victim made a bad choice in going for a low budget procedure found on the net but she didn't deserve the result.
People who are desperate for mods and are taken advantage of make me sad.
The people who take advantage need to do hard time.

 

Can't agree more, those people are pieces of shit who lie to and destroy the lives of many vulnerable people - like the lady who was featured on the show 1,000 Ways to Die whose doctor came to her house and injected her face with BOTOX (botulism poisoning) that wasn't formulated right and then simply left her, and a few minutes later while she was sitting in her hot tub the poisonous injection entered her blood stream and paralyzed her, and she slid under the water and drowned, unable to move.

Society likes to just brush off this kind of thing as being the "victim's fault" and "that's what you get for being vain," which has got to be the most hypocritical bullshit I've ever heard - especially coming from a society as vain ours generally is. Granted most shitty or botched procedures are budget jobs performed by hacks (did you know that in most states you don't need a special license to practice cosmetic surgery - just a general medical license, even just a dental or orthodontal license), and people should know better than to go the budget route when it comes to your body that you have to live with and look at every day, but for a society to make high demands and invalidate people who don't meet them, but then condemn and punish people for scrambling to meet the same demands set forth by said society is self-contradictory, unjust, and predatory. Not to mention it makes an entire black market of predators like this:

 

Haha I knew someone would pick that out (although honestly I didn't think it would be you, since you come across on the forum as kind of aggressively heteronormative, "repressed" as you've said, a little emotionally distant, and maybe even a little callous at times - I mean I'm not trying to attack you or anything, it's just the impression I've gleaned so far...), but the worst part is that this video is the lesser of the two evils I came across using a quick Google search... This is the first one, seemingly from a relatively conservative FOX-like news station, which I decided not to use because it's just so blatantly insensitive, it sounds like they're talking about some kind of strange, perplexing animal in a zoo or something...

"Tranny Pretending To Be A Dr. Injected Cement & Fix-a-Flat Into Woman's Ass For Cosmetic Surgery"