polyamory.

So I go out on this date last night with a new guy who described himself as polyamorous. When we sat down in his living room and started talking about things, one of the first things I asked him was what he meant about being polyamorous (because, you know, he's single) and it's a word that keeps popping up when I try to describe myself and the development of my 'dating life' but it never really feels like it fits.

And I was surprised to hear that polyamory is an actual movement and that there is a group here in Orlando that has meetings and pub nights and whatnot.

I asked him how polyamory distinguishes itself from swinging and he said that there are some elements of that lifestyle in polyamory but that it also takes other forms such as cohabitation (in groups of 2 or 3), group marriages, etc. and that swinging has such a negative connotation in the public sphere that they try to distance themselves from that stigma. Understandable. I actually looked into a swingers party here in town and was totally put off when they wrote back to me and told me that single women get into the parties for free. What the...what does that mean, exactly? Single women don't have to pay? So I never went to one, but I don't have a favorable impression of them from a single woman's perspective.

When I asked him how a typical polyamorous relationship works he said that there is usually a primary couple who also have secondary relationships with other people who either do or do not live in the same home. So I said, 'well, what if you don't have or want a primary relationship, but rather an assortment of open, non-monogamous relationships.' And he laughed and said, 'well, that is a subject that causes not a small amount of controversy in the poly community because there are a lot of people who believe you can't be poly without a primary relationship.' 'Wow. So, in other words, I am just sleeping around?' 'Yes, to some people.' And I had to laugh at that because, hey, 'even in the subculture there is couple privilege.'

Anyway, I don't want to join the poly community. I went to their local website and, quite frankly, the level of writing on the site just wasn't up to my standards. Orlando never does anything like this right. I'm quite happy navigating my own way around this one. It kind of ties in with the plural marriage thread I started a few weeks ago, though. My head is definitely swimming with thoughts about where I am headed with all of this. I mean, it's more to me than just 'sleeping around.' I think of these people as my friends. Comrade-like.

So, discussion...

Does anyone here have any experience with polyamory? Have you been in a polyamorous relationship or do you know someone who has?

Do you think society is ready to accept polyamory as an alternative to traditional monogamy and marriage?

What are your thoughts in general on polyamory?
Here is a website for your edification.
Modern Poly | The Pulse of the Polyamory Movement

Do you think a proliferation of non-monogamous relationships would do harm to society?

Stuff like that. I always feel conflicted about posting questions to answer with these posts because I think they're too confining and lead to rote-ish answers. Really, you can write whatever you think about it.

 

I have known two long-term triples, that is, stable married households consisting of three individuals, without any outside involvements. Of the two, one of the triples continues, having existed for decades now.

Pretty much everything I know about polyamory comes from those six people.

Both triples were/are MFM. The men sometimes call themselves "co-husbands". I suppose it depends on the personalities, but I think MFM is the only stable configuration for a polyamorous triple.

I can easily imagine myself in such a triple, but the opportunity never came along.

I suppose the appeal of the MFM triple, for men, is akin to the cuckold fantasy, that is, to be excited by the concept or reality of a wife who has other lovers (sex partners), without being interested in other lovers for oneself.

A psychologist friend of mine is of the opinion that, in a stable triple, one of the three is the "child", and the other two are the "parents". But I didn't see that in the triples mentioned above.

Ottawa (Ontario, Canada), or that metro area, is said to be the "capital" of polyamory. I believe polyamory is more widespread and accepted in Canada than in the United States.

 

We started a FFM thing about a year ago. My wife decided to fulfill my threesome fantasy. But, she said she wanted to be friends with the other lady, because, the other lady is not a sex toy. That seemed like a decent way to go about it. She went on a dating site and said she was a woman seeking a woman. We got amazingly lucky. We found an awesome lady who only lives 5 miles from us. My wife and her are best friends. we have had threesomes a couple of times, and if you can manage it, they are great.
A few months ago we joined a Facebook poly website. We have met some fun people. I have seen a lady I like a couple of times. My wife is at a poly speed dating event tonight. The group calls itself a trybe. There are about one hundred people in the group. As with any group, there are some people you like, and some that maybe you don't. There has been a little drama, but mostly it's kept between the people involved. This group has lots of parties, and get to gathers. There is no pressure on anyone to do or not do. We have been to a nude photo shoot, a Japanese themed party, and a family friendly Halloween party. I haven't seen any sex at any of them, but it may have gone on after we left. I have been told about some of the couples who switch, and there are a few single people in the group. Both male and female.So far it's been good. They post lots of interesting articles about poly, and sex in general.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me her, or pm me.
Jim

 

I have a friend up here who considers herself 'polyamorous.' It does have a little bit to do with sharing your body, but to her it's more of sharing her mind, her heart, and her soul as well. In her words, she "has too much love to give to just one person." It's quite sweet.
Like your date, she does have a primary relationship, but if she had it her way she would also date others at the same time. I'm not involved with that relationship so I don't know how her other half feels about it and so I won't try to speak for them, but I know how she feels about it.

I'm personally undecided. I love the idea of being poly and would love to practice this lifestyle, but I have deep-rooted insecurity and jealousy issues that would prevent that from happening effectively.

 

As far as swingers, single bi women aee a hot commodity. Single men are a dime a hundred. The women are known as unicorns because they seem so rate. My girlfriend and I have found one who will play with us. But we have not had the opportunity yet.
If I were in a poly relationship I would be worried about ending up as second fiddle but that is my insecurity.
I would like to hear how lurkette, ratbistid and stellaluna are doing in their relationship.

 

You should checkout the Showtime show Polyamory. It's a "reality" show depicting 3 separate poly relationships and their lives.

I've no experience, but I do have one female friend who is in a poly relationship with 2 men. It appears to be all drama free as far as that goes. One of the guys seems more poly than the other , or maybe that's just my interpretation.

 

I don't think it's for me but I don't have a problem with it for others.
I found it interesting that MFM is thought the most "stable" configuration.
I would have guessed FMF. If I envision myself in a stable triple I see it in my head as FMF. (Wishful thinking, perhaps)

 

Thought to be, that is, by me. I don't claim that others think the same way.

 

My ex-wife and I had what I consider a polyamorous relationship for a number of years. We were a (mostly) happy and typical couple who just didn't mind if the other happened to dabble with somebody else once in a while. We had some ground rules we followed: I wasn't allowed with prostitutes (had no desire anyway), she shouldn't sleep with my coworkers, we'd both always be safe, etc, but otherwise it was ok as long as it didn't get to the point where it affected our own relationship. I suppose were also in the MFM type of relationship for a while, as a good friend came to live with us and we kinda lived as co-husbands. Ours was always the 'primary' relationship though, i.e. we were usually the ones sharing a bed at night, so maybe not a fully fair relationship. Though them sleeping together wasn't uncommon, and I didn't mind, and participated occasionally (I'm straight, so she was always the focus of attention).

My current wife wouldn't be comfortable with that sort of open relationship, and I'm fine with that. I wouldn't want to sleep with other women if it would hurt her. Though she knows about my past relationship though, and I'm occasionally worried that she feels like she's 'stifling' me, even though I reassure her that that is not the case.

I will say that I don't think this type of relationship is possible for a lot of people in our society. Possessiveness and jealousy are too deeply ingrained in most people to be able to adopt the attitude of holding a relationship (or marriage in our case) while not holding sexual relations to be exclusive to that relationship.

On a side note, it's really frustrating that everyone who learns that we had this sort of relationship assumes that it was the cause of our divorce. It wasn't, and it just shows the attitudes of people that they assume the lifestyle was so dysfunctional that of course we eventually got divorced.
--- merged: Nov 24, 2013 at 1:57 PM ---
On topic, early reading of Heinlein may have influenced my attitudes towards sex and relationships. I loved Stranger in a Strange Land and its open attitudes towards sex, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress portrayed group marriage in a very positive and logical perspective. Also, I made the personal decision to be Wiccan in my early teenage years, so I didn't have the oppression if a typical religious worldview to overcome.

 

Its generally not unless both men are bi. The most stable statistically speaking (and I no longer have a source for this, so take my word or not) is FMF. Basically polygamy. This also makes the most evolutionary sense. One man with two women does little to reduce fitness, two men with one woman will, all things equal HALVE the fitness of the men. There is only one society where MFM is a custom, and its due more to harsh conditions (and the men are brothers). The younger brothers goal though is his own wife.

I've seen a lot of poly come and go, and generally I think its unstable for a majority who do it.

Many women use the "poly" label because they "slut" label is too negative in their minds. Sure they might have a five guys who they have sex with at any given time but they are "poly" they have FEELINGS!!!oneone for the guy, they are not sluts! The label goes to hide the "dirty" aspect of sex they can't come to grips with.

Couples do the same thing. "We are not swingers! We are poly! With just this one couple! We would never have casual meaningless dirty filthy sex."

Guys we don't use this term when we are solo, then we are just guys (funny how that works).

I think true poly, everyone equal in the relationship is rare, and it suffers from more people giving more chance for more drama in the relationship. When my wife and I are having troubles, its just us, WE have to work it out. Now what if its my wife and I and some other dude who "is on her side"? It becomes a them against me, and I've seen bad things happen there.
Once they start talking about primary and secondaries, what they are talking about is more fucking good friends. Nothing wrong with that, but just say you fuck your friends, we used to have close friends we fucked too, they were even god parents to our children. That came to an end when one started having an affair with someone from their work. There was even a brief time where I thought "hey if this turned poly it would be kinda cool" and boy I'm glad we didn't go that route.

Basically its hard enough 1-1, 1-1-1, or 1-1-1-1 etc just makes it harder.

 

I'm not certain why it needs to make evolutionary sense. Most people will still couple in pairs and have children. As it is, some people couple and have no children. I don't think the impulse to propagate is necessarily a factor in the formation of all intimate relationships.

I don't mind calling myself a slut. But I do think the slut label is a negative in many people's minds. Particularly those who think they have the right to judge women based on the amount of sexual activity they have. I do have feelings for most of the men I sleep with. Some more than others. I feel like I am fucking good friends. And I love casual meaningless dirty filthy sex.

As for the dynamics of interaction, a lot of people just assume that it would be more difficult with more people. But I think it depends on the people. I could see having extra people around to mediate and de-escalate situations as a good thing. It's very easy when you are one on one to become entrenched in adversarial behavior - you can develop a sort of tunnel vision - that having another person around who cares about you both can help to dismantle. I'm not certain that I want that kind of relationship. In fact, I am pretty sure that I will continue doing this single slutty thing for a while. But, I see as many positives as negatives in poly relationships. And when you look at the extent of divorce and fucking around that goes on out there in the world of monogamy, I really don't see how they can make any grand claims on stability.

 

Heterosexual MFM makes more sense to me than FMF because men, uh, tire out more quickly.

The stability I see is based on MFM triples who live together happily for ten years in one case, and at least 30 years (and ongoing) in the other case.

Perhaps I value, and honor, stability more than most people do. An inherently unstable situation strikes me as tense and unpleasant.

 

I think most people are just thinking, heh, two ladies, bow-chicka-bow-bow and not thinking past it much further than that.

 

For about a billion years the only purpose of sex is procreation. When studied all sex arrangements (and there are some out there that are not strictly MF) are mathematically geared to maximize the genes of those involved. From bee hives to harems. Its not logical to assume we are somehow immune to these forces, especially considering that it doesn't seem we are. As individuals we can "buck the system" using our intelligence, but the species as a whole will be happiest when we follow our genes.

Following our genes is why we pair bond (marry) and have lots of affairs on the side. This makes a lot of genetic sense of sorts. It allows for a stable environment to raise children as well as extra coupling to maximize overall fitness. Its a common tactic in some birds and some social mammals.

What I see what my wife and I do is making our genes happy without lying about it. We have sex with other people, which satisfies that genetic desire to "cheat" only with each other as a "we do it together" thing which brings us closer and makes us better friends. We get the best of both worlds, but this also required we beat another genetically induced issue which is jealousy.

Jealousy is one of those things that makes sense as well evolutionarily. It keeps you vigilant as a male to make sure your kids are yours and keeps you vigilant as a female to make sure hes not sharing resources with another female. Couples with NO jealousy have been shown to divorce more than couples with it. Despite the fact that my wife had sex with two different men (3 including me) two weeks ago on a vacation and I had sex with four women, including her, there are still things she could do which would make me jealous, which is fear of loss. I would not be comfortable with her going out "on a date" with another male, or setting up her own liaisons without me. I know where those can lead and I'd rather not test that.

Good for you and fuck the haters My wife resisted the slut label for a long time because shes one of those that worried about what people think, its only been recently that shes been able to embrace it. All of my best female friends are sluts, which is basically embracing sex like a man.

Its all about finding the RIGHT person. I got, and I can't over state this, EXTREMELY lucky when I found my wife. I wasn't looking for a swing partner, I wasn't looking for a slut, I wasn't looking for anything but a girl friend. I was VERY jealous and very protective of her while we were dating. I've always trusted her 100%, and I know that despite of everything we have done she would NEVER have an affair, but it was other men I didn't trust. It was only chance that I happened to find a sweet innocent young thing (she was 18) who deep inside, unknown even to her, was a bisexual slut waiting to be let out. Every now and then she still crawls back into that innocent shell of hers because its comfortable and safe. We were monogamous for over 10 years before we mutually decided to give swinging a try.

As for the multi-person dynamic, take it from an older salt in this sort of thing. It has more problems than benefits. If no kids are involved, it doesn't matter as much and there is less pressure, but if someone starts having kids, or someone starts to "not feel it" things go south very quickly.

Now I'm not saying it can't work, and work long term, it does for some. Its just a level of difficulty higher. The same could be said for what my wife and I do. Its not many men who can sit with a woman he just met hours before as she recovers from an orgasm I gave her on the dance floor while her husband feels up my wife 10 feet away and laugh about the situation.

If someone is in a poly relationship that really works for them, kudos.

MFM is MUCH more common in swinger SEX than FMF. Its not for lack of desire for FMF's in fact most new swingers are seeking them not MFM's but logistics.

I've been involved in both. For years I was the extra M for a couple, we have had a few MFM's and FMF's our self, so I have more than a passing experience with them.

The problem with FMF's are first, finding the extra F. For most couples this is hard. Unless the wife of the couple is a very outgoing and aggressive bisexual who can pick up a bisexual woman in a vanilla setting, finding an extra female has a special word. Unicorn. Unicorns in swinging are single females willing to play with couples and they are called unicorns because they are so rare. Those who are unicorns in the lifestyle tend to be four types.

If you are lucky, someone who used to be in a lifestyle relationship who recently broke up. They won't be a unicorn for long as they tend to find a man relatively soon.

The second type is usually very unattractive. She can't do well in normal dating because of her looks, but swingers are so desperate for another F they don't care.

The third are cheating wives. BAD, bad bad bad. We won't go near them but because so many couples do want an F they overlook this little moral dilemma.

And the fourth, batshit insane. Every couple that is a "unicorn" hunter, has a story about the batshit insane one. They often see the couple as substitute parents, or tries to move in, or become "the wife" or just a drama queen *100. They are single for good reason.

Single males though are a dime a dozen, and you can keep the dime. You can set up an MFM in hours while and FMF would take months for most.

Now for sex logistics, it depends on if both girls are bi or not. If the girls are bi, and FMF is better and easier than a MFM. Everyone shares everything so to speak. You both go down on the other woman, everyone makes out, everyone orgasms, all is good.

If one of the girls is straight then its very difficult. I've done that once and it was a juggling act on my part. In that case an MFM is better as you focus on the female.

Now the best I suppose would be MFM where the guys are bi, but I'm straight so we are out of luck there.

Somehow the forum ate my first post in the multi reply so if this looks odd thats why.

 

I can agree with this too. When my ex and I were together, it could still make me jealous if she were to do something that made it seem like I was neglected in favor of someone else. This type of relationship isn't (and I would say maybe shouldn't) be devoid of jealousy. It's just understanding that her going off to have a good time without me didn't take away from our relationship.

 

Thanks, Herculite, for writing a response in such great detail. I have to be honest and say, though, that from what you say I don't think either swinging or polyamory are for me. Not in the context of a larger community at any rate. It seems to me that there are a lot of rules and attitudes that don't jibe with my personality.

 

I'd be interested to know which rules would be hard for you?

 

Well, rules such as the need for a "primary" relationship to be considered polyamorous. I mean the word polyamory - loving many - it doesn't imply a hierarchy. And it rubs me the wrong way to know that there is controversy out there regarding single polys because it seems, honestly, like just another example of how organization and rules can make people rigid conformists. And judgmental of people who are not conforming. It's disappointing.

And that takes me back to having to call myself a slut and not poly because my behavior makes me not worthy of the word. I don't mind being called a slut. I've been called one periodically throughout my life. Usually in a negative sense. But I am "loving many" it's not just about the sex, there is definitely an element of love in it for me. I share a lot more than my body. But there is no category for me other than 'slut' or, as you put it, "like a man." And that doesn't ring true for me. I guess what it is is that I behave like a slut, but my attitude is definitely poly. I want to be single and have ongoing, simultaneous, uncommitted, non-monogamous relationships with multiple men and not be thought of as just sleeping around.

I should write a book and start my own group because it's really pretty great and I think a lot of women would enjoy what I'm doing.

 

Obviously I am no expert on this, but I don't think there's 100% consensus on that point.

Agreed!

Are you familiar with the book The Ethical Slut?