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The necessity of strong people to do the dirty work?

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by Chris Noyb, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I saw an interview with Dick Cheney where he was asked about some of his policies & actions that are considered to be unethical and/or illegal. He made no apologies, basically saying that we need strong people who will do the questionable things that others aren't willing to do. BTW, while I believe that Cheny is a good example, I don't want to make this thread only about Cheney.

    I'm not a 'secret government nut,' but I believe there is enough evidence to show that politicians and military leaders make policies and take actions that violate the constitution, peace treaties, international accords, etc. You don't have to dig very deep to find business leaders behaving unethically & illegally.

    Throughout history people in authority have had to make tough decisions. Military leaders, politicians, businessmen, etc. Many of those tough decisions cross the line of what most consider ethical and/or legal.

    I'm on the fence. We do need strong people to make tough decisions and take action. Whether or not the ends justify the means is debatable.
     
  2. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    I am definitely not on the fence. Folks may argue that being able to sit here and type this right now with running water in the bathroom behind me and a television in the living room should prove to me that the end justifies the means. But I can only look at that sentiment with a sort of amusement because, to me, if I could 'write the world,' have a world entirely of my making, conveniences and entertainment would not be the aspects we would point to and say 'hey, we're fabulous!' Fact is, we have not paid the price for the lifestyle we have. We may be making the decisions, but it's the oppressed and disenfranchised around the world who have made this possible. It's really, well, if there were evil in this world, I would not be looking to the East.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I will speak about America, as that seems to be the slant here, but don't take that as any ignorance of Canada's history in this respect.

    I have often taken issue with America's ends and means. America has acted as superpower and has projected itself with the image as benevolent benefactor in the name of freedom, democracy, justice, etc., but when you look past the facade, you see that a lot of what goes on is bullshit.

    What drives much of America's means and ends is looking out for its best interests in a geopolitical and economic sense. This shouldn't come as a surprise. If it were otherwise—in other words, if it were really about freedom, democracy, justice, etc.,—Africa would get much, much more attention, and places like North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, etc., would have much different relations with the U.S.

    As it happens, Africa is relatively underserved/ignored, North Korea widely left to its own devices, Saudi Arabia is an "ally," and China is an important business partner and cautious contact in international relations. Sure, lip service is paid to these: Africa gets aid, North Korea sanctions/warnings, and Saudi Arabia and China criticisms.

    But it's bullshit.

    Decisions are made not for the greater benefit of the people, but for the continued stability and PR of America abroad. Again, it shouldn't come as a surprise.

    That said, there is more to it than that. Global capitalism can be just as nefarious. Just as justice is blind, markets are rational, after all. If the workers of developing nations were paid the same minimum wage as Americans, even accounting for exchange rates, or PPP, the cost of living in America would skyrocket to the point of hyperinflation. In other words, the comforts of Western society are built upon the backs of the invisible miserable masses overseas.

    Ethics is a tricky thing when you consider the big picture. I don't want to go all socialist on this thread or anything (not yet anyway), but I will at least state, for the record, that global capitalism is the underlying cause of most of the world's problems. The solutions lie in how to manage it.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  4. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Yes, what he said.
     
  5. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Well, it's like a bit of both sides.

    Even Lincoln technically deviated from the Constitution to get certain things done for the overall good of the war.
    And America is not totally evil either...nor really are most any other countries.

    But that doesn't excuse, any means to an end...and I find people like Cheney...and others, tend to use that as an excuse to do what they want to do...for their own benefit.
    He has made many rationalization for going overboard.

    Being strong, doesn't mean using the hammer.
    Nor do I think only "strong" people use the hammer. (ex. Obama, who is no wuss on pulling the trigger...despite his liberal/intellectual origins)

    I think it takes a person who knows discretion and restraint.
    Who knows how to use the brakes...not only the gas pedal.

    That's why I trust people on foreign policy that consider all sides...and it's not just by party/ideology. (Bush Sr. was good at that)
    Think about it. Get all the info. Debate yourself and others. Only if really necessary, do it, get in and out quick. Stop.

    Cheney is a power-monger. Simple.
    He expects everyone to just "trust" those in authority. And if you question him, then you just don't know what you're talking about. You're weak.

    If he was truly in charge, as Prez. We'd probably have a fascist government by now.
    I think GWB actually prevented him from going further in the end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  6. curiousbear

    curiousbear Terse & Bizarre

    I often wonder how the world would have been if WW left Germany or Japan as super power instead of America. That thought is so scary!
    --- merged: Nov 22, 2013 at 4:11 PM ---
    Sadly very true
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2013
  7. Street Pattern

    Street Pattern Very Tilted

    There is a piece in the recent Atlantic magazine about precisely this question.

    The subject is Niccolò Machiavelli (1469-1527), author of The Prince, who was one of the first to write about the conflict a ruler faces between private morality and practical necessity.

    His answer was that a state or a government must do things that would be immoral if done by an individual -- but only to the precise extent necessary.

    Aha, I found it online: Machiavelli Was Right - Michael Ignatieff - The Atlantic

     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  8. Chris Noyb

    Chris Noyb Get in, buckle up, hang on, & be quiet.

    Location:
    Large City, TX
    I'll add some thoughts later. For now I want to apologize for the crappy title of this thread. One of my great uncles really liked saying, "My dog is smarter than you."
     
  9. MSD

    MSD Very Tilted

    Location:
    CT
    If you have a more fitting title, we can easily change it.
     
  10. Charlatan

    Charlatan sous les pavés, la plage

    Location:
    Temasek
    If America is a nation of laws, those who break the laws are anti-American.
     
  11. Street Pattern

    Street Pattern Very Tilted

    "Don't get the idea that I'm one of these goddam radicals. Don't get the idea that I'm knocking the American system." - Al Capone
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    It's the quiet moments that really matter.