females, feminists and femininity.

Well, you know, some people are assholes.

 

Yes. Very true.
I feel though that the 'burden of beauty" is one that most females carry. If you are "unpretty" as the asshole I dropped the quote from says, then it seems to be a given that you will strive to be pretty. There are countless ways we do this including plastic surgery (which absolutely is a personal choice but what motivates it can be anywhere from quite disturbing to less of a beauty choice and more of a health choice). Is it fun to spend huge swaths of time in the pursuit of an idealistic notion that "if only" we were pretty enough, then many wonderful things would follow? Not only was it not fun, it was ultimately a complete waste of time.

How much of what we do to our appearance, especially when we are younger women, is to appease or entice others? Is it still the exception that a girl moving into womanhood isn't painfully aware of the messages she sends out by the way she dresses, the size of her chest, how wide her hips are/tight-looking her bum is (cultural differences notwithstanding)?

I'll give another mini recap of my experience which is of a female born 4-5 years before the Pill became available and the sexual revolution began.

It was certainly no burden to be born to attractive, middle-class Canadian parents and luck out in the gene pool game on the pretty side of the spectrum. My mom though, felt the 2 broken noses she suffered falling out of trees as a kid "ruined" her otherwise classic good looks and once she had a pretty daughter she was thrilled that she could live vicariously through me. She dressed me up like a little doll and even after I could run with the neighbourhood kids, persisted in having me wear tights in which I would return home from play with both knees out after one wearing. She was always angry about that.
How disappointing it was to have a tomboy for a daughter!

I didn't carry that burden in my first six years of life, not that I can remember. I was a happy kid and I loved nothing more than to be set free outdoors.
Indoors, Mom was always fussing with my hair, giving me Toni(sp) perms, teaching me how to sit 'like a lady' and show my teeth (an approximation of smiling) for the camera. So bless her, she tried.

Problem was, I was not a mini-her. If anything, I was more like my dad--both of us built like brick houses, very muscular--big. Both my dad and I struggled with liking to eat and when I did slow down after we moved to the States*, I began to pack on weight.
*Instead of walking 3 miles total each day to school, living out in the cow-country of Connecticut, I was bused--and I ate for comfort. The combo was fatal.

Being the fat, immigrant girl, no matter how pretty the face, became my cross to bear and to this day is the line that is drawn between being attractive and unattractive (but being Canadian is no longer exotic or strange in most places). Because my weight goes up and down, I have a jaded view of most people as I was also treated differently, depending what I weighed by both men and women. I was the same me inside but very, very different outside.
When I was just me within a normal weight range as a young woman, men and woman came out of the woodwork. I mistrusted them and still sometimes do. Did they like me for me or for the woman that skewed to the "pretty" side of the spectrum?

And so it went as my weight fluctuated, I developed eating disorders (everything but anorexia, which I jokingly wished would afflict me). There was a heavy dose of mental illness on my mother's side. When my dad met her she was in her late 20's going through her second "nervous breakdown"/psychiatric hospitalization. He was very much a caretaking type. They were perfect for one another. I never went as crazy as my Mom (who should have had treatment beyond the hospitalization, but didn't, she instead became a shut-in). I got depressed, suicidal even (at age 13 and again at age 25).
I had huge anxiety about going out in the schizophrenic world where I could be catcalled fatty in the winter and then slim down and be cat-called rude sexual names by the summer. I really trusted no one and I probably trust few now. Would it have been different had the circumstances been different? Probably, but how I cannot say.

I got help at age 25. It was that or have my then 2 year-old son taken away whilst I was locked up in the looney bin (as mom called it). So tranquilized outpatient with a year psychotherapy, it was.
The male social worker was the kindest man I ever met. He helped me see where the light went dark and he helped me find a place inside me where with work, I could again see the lovely light of the world.

Certainly, much of that light I don't find in people (there are very few adults that IMO, radiate their own light and to whom I am very attracted). I find light in nature and it's animals. I find peace in both. Music frees me, as does Disneyland*. The arts. Living on a lake--I crave solitude but am energized by being with a certain type of person.
*the freedom to squeal with delight--in public--like a little girl

So being a woman fucked me up pretty good, or maybe being of a woman did.
But I am, mostly, unfucked now. It took getting past age 45 to get here.

I'm an ardent feminist. My first "heroes" were Jane Goodall (I was age 8) my 5th grade English teacher who wore cats-eyeglasses, had untamed naturally curly hair, was bookish (no pun), loved outcasts and was lesbian, and Gloria Steinem. Later, artists, writers and other activists would continue to encourage and inspire me. Most all were women. Men, I could admire from afar, but the issue of trust has never been resolved enough for me to actually feel kindred with them, with a rare few exceptions.
--- merged: Nov 8, 2013 at 5:43 PM ---

Well, I'm with you on this--at least half-way and I believe I have you beat in the age game by um, 6-7 years. I used to always wear foundation when I went out of the house. Never wear it now. Mascara, ditto. However, I use coverstick/cream and lipstick/gloss, minimum. And the aging process/ vanity has "gifted' me with a couple more jars of nighttime face gunk, too.

 

Sounds very heavy @fangirl

 

I guess it was. I always considered myself lucky. That things are so much worse for other folks. That sounds contradictory but I'm a mass of them.

Here's a little story of me as a 24 y.o. woman. My construction worker husband had a set way of beating me about every two weeks. It mattered not what for. Talking back was a big one. Anyway, I'd get popped in the nose, a split lip and two black eyes. Every time. My self-esteem was gone. I noticed though his increasing anger towards our then 1.5 year old son so I was secretly stashing away $ and had an escape plan for the near future. After he beat me, he would drag me into the the shower and wash off the blood and then he want to make love, which given the circumstances, was marital rape. It was absolutely coerced by the beating just previous. I got pregnant and I immediately scheduled an abortion because I knew I was not emotionally nor mentally sound enough to raise two small children alone and he'd made sure I was completely cut off from all friends and most family. I'd been on Weight Watchers and dropped about IDK, 45 lbs. at that point but I still had a bit of a tummy. During the abortion procedure the male doctor asked me what was going on in my life that I was terminating the pregnancy and I told him. When he finished, he patted me on my exposed tummy and said that if I wanted to succeed I'd best get rid of "that."

I sound like I hate people but I don't, especially the people here. In many ways it is like a haven of safety for me.

 

I very badly want to hug you @fangirl

 

I second that. Maybe one day I'll tell some of my stories; but I know I'm not quite ready to share much of it tonight.

Thank you for being able to share the things I'm not ready to, yet.

Re: BB Creams. I'm not super pale, but not tan by any means. I was using the Tarte BB in Light - but they go one shade lighter in Fair. It's very pale.

Right now I'm using Dr Lewinn's BB cream - but I must be crazy because I don't see any colors anywhere... I'll have to look next time I'm at Wally World. (It's about 1/2 the price of the Tarte brand) But I really like it better. Ask me next week and the answer may be wildly different. I'm not really brand loyal and I just got a slew of new products to try out.

 

Aw, that is so kind of you @curiousbear, thank you!
--- merged: Nov 10, 2013 7:52 AM ---

Thank you @RedSneaker--you are very kind.
Thank you for sharing your art, too--which to me is very personal and brave of you--putting yourself out there like that.

 

What are your earliest memories of gender awareness?
It's interesting how sometimes you don't know what you know until you think about it. Between being raised by a woman who didn't believe in ignorance or lying to children and being a human difference engine I can't actually remember any time when I didn't know there were two genders. That boys and girls had different bodies was just the way the world was from even my earliest memories around 2 years old.

What were the norms for gender in your family and your community?
In the finest Jewish tradition of technically accurate but useless responses the answer is "it depends". The closest I ever came to being part of a geographic community was attending holiday services at local orthodox synagogues wherever we lived, aside from my family the only real long-term interaction I had was online. On the internet there is no gender, no race, no age, only thoughts on the screen. What was in someone's pants simply didn't factor into the equation, only whether they were competent and intelligent. As far as I was concerned gender was (and is) simply however someone chooses to identify themselves, calling a trans friend by their identified gender is as boringly natural as doing the same for a non-trans friend.

At the same time Judaism has some pretty strict ideas on gender, believing strongly that the two are different and have different requirements or purposes spiritually, while still holding both to be inherently equal socially. Women can own property or engage in business, respected academically, and may force a divorce for several reasons but religiously don't perform many of the mitzvot men do. They're believed to have a great "binah", they're spiritually more pure and closer to God. Modern prayers for example are themselves in direct imitation of the heartfelt outpouring which came naturally to Chana. There are beliefs which line up with some traditional western gender roles, the duties of a wife and mother in the home, but they're not restrictive and many great historical figures were women.

How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -
I've never once been told or taught that I should be proud of being a man. I've been taught I should be ashamed of my gender, I owe the world an apology, that like all men I'm a monster and I just haven't committed a crime yet. In grade school I was taught that girls are nicer and cleaner, in middle school they're better behaved and better students, in high school they're smarter and their lives are more valuable, and in college they're perfect. Boys were dirty, they were mean, they didn't sit still and argued, they weren't good students and made better meatshields, they just don't have any value, all they ever do is cause trouble. As an adult I've learned the hard way that things don't get any better, people don't like their prejudices being challenged.

But further than that baseline, as a male victim of abuse I've "invited" further cruelty. To be a male victim is to invite further victimization by being, it is being treated as if your mere existence is an affront. You're told that only women can be victims, only women deserve help, you should shut up because you're still privileged, and you just want attention because "what about teh menz". Worse still is daring to seek help and be accused of "hijacking" women's issues and "mansplaining", which can provoke people beyond harassment and into outright violence. It's like being the child that's beaten, beat again for crying, and then a third time for being ungrateful and "telling lies".

A "guy question": Are you consciously aware (whether constantly or occasionally) of being mis- or underrepresented in media, or have you accepted any common biases and not pay much heed to them?
I could probably go off for a page on this subject alone but to answer it very generally before touching on it again two questions down, yes. It's gotten to the point where I'm honestly not sure I can recall a healthy portrayal of men in the media in recent history. Men in the media are literal Straw Men. They're flanderized to fit destructive stereotypes which make it easy to dismiss all men as fitting some negative cliche or another. There aren't any male characters that are just simple, capable, intelligent men that don't go too far in the other direction and set the bar impossibly high.


How do you feel about feminism and how do you express it (if at all)?
That's an "If By Whiskey" question for me. If-by-feminism you mean any of the many groups calling themselves "Feminism" which stand for true gender equality, the belief that freedom and equality is the right of all sentient beings, then I'm an ardent supporter. I argue for LGBT equality as well as victim's and human rights pretty much constantly, often to the annoyance of any nearby right wingers.

On the other hand (and tying in with the next question) if-by-feminism you're referring to the many groups also calling themselves "Feminism" which have non-egalitarian ideologies, whether passively or actively prejudicial, then by definition I oppose them as much as I oppose any hate group. Hate is hate regardless of whether you believe that whites are superior, blacks are superior, or "womyn-born-womyn" are superior.

It's cumbersome, but when both TFPers and a member of S.C.U.M. call themselves "Feminists" despite the former obviously being pro-equality and the latter advocating mass murder the semantics of supporting one and opposing the other get tricky fast.

What is your relationship with femininity?
In a word: Complicated. Like Curiousbear people have at times said I can be very "feminine", or at least am in good touch with my "feminine side", but the thing is I reject that entirely. I don't think volunteering with children and animals in traditionally nurturing and empathetic roles, caring about personal grooming, or attempting to genuinely deal with and express emotions makes me "feminine" because I don't think it's right to treat those as gender-specific traits.

I think the idea that they are is a direct result of the same perverting force which has led to the development of our current destructive ideas of masculinity, after all what is toxic masculinity of not a destructive ideal of hyperagency devoid of empathy, self-worth, emotional agency?

Masculinity and Femininity have both been polarized, turning both into dysfunctional mirrors of each other and leaving many of their positive traits in the growing no-man's-land between the two. Genderratic has written at length on the various toxic aspects of Hypoagency and Gynonormativity and how they lead to an internally and externally hostile definition of femininity. Both directly tie into the previous question, as imho a large part of toxic femininity is its politicization by those non-egalitarian groups who use "victim cred" as a strategic resource and cultivate it through hypoagency.

But all of that is on the level of society. Individually my relationship is that of a healthy heterosexual male. Intellectually and physically I like women. I enjoy the alternative approaches and perspectives the structural differences in their brains offer, and I enjoy their physical presence and aesthetics because that's basically what being a straight guy means in a nutshell.


I know I've written a fair measure about masculinity and maleness in this post despite the thread title, but I believe with good reason. The first is just obvious, my personal experiences with gender norms have all been affected by my maleness. The second is because we define ourselves by what we are as much we do by what we are not. When toxic masculinity was defining males as disposable, toxic femininity was handing out white feathers. Male and Female, Masculine and Feminine, both are two sides of the same coin.

The most important thing we can ever realise is that when we hurt one another, we hurt ourselves.

 

I guess we always knew there were gender differences - the old cow being like a magdalene nun when it came to the way my big sister and I were raised/tortured. We knew there were differences, because girls could not go on rope swings, walk on walls, or ride bikes - in case you 'damaged yourself' for then 'no man will want you'. Girls didnt get a full plate at meal times, nor a full belly - because boys needed more food to grow. Our gender differences were not sexual - but a form of bullying.
Aged five, my son started a new school, and promptly told his teacher that he was a feminist, because he thought women should have equality, and they dont. Raised by just a mum, perhaps thats why.
It was something mentioned when I was called into school as they had some concerns. During class they had to carry an imaginary object, and the other children guess what it was. Was he carrying a ball? No. They could not guess. He was carrying Margaret Thatchers head. They were concerned. I told them he was obviously showing sympathy for their current pay negotiations. Imagination police.

 

Still not delving into depth with responding to @mixedmedia's questions here—not yet, but I'm going to—but I have a relevant moment's observation to share. I'm seated in a chair in front of the bargain priced book display shelves at Barnes and Noble, reading and passively people watching. A little girl, probably three or four years old, circled round the display, pointing out which books are for girls and which are for boys, in no apparent deliberate order. Three about Lincoln, with Honest Abe photographed on the cover, were for boys. The next one in line after them, a guide to unarmed combat (with no photo on the cover), was for girls.

Interesting.

 

Tomorrows TFPer?

 

What are your earliest memories of gender awareness?
I have been thinking about this for a bit now and the earliest moment I can remember is from grade one. At recess I would get chased by a group of girls who wanted to kiss me. I knew they were girls and I was a boy. I am sure it wasn't a complex understanding.

What were the norms for gender in your family and your community?
I was raised by a single mother. The men in my life were her boyfriends rather than my father (I didn't meet my father until I was about 9). My Mom worked. I was either in daycare (until grade 3) or a latch key kid. The majority of my friends (or so it seemed) came from divorced families.


How have your attitudes toward gender been influenced by your personal experiences -

with your parents and family?
I grew up with a very capable Mom who didn't take shit from people. She kept me fed, clothed and our apartment was always stylish and spotless. She appeared to be able to do it all. When I started to visit my Dad, I noticed that he did the same and was raising my brother. Single parents *can* pull it off.

That said, both of my parents were quite homophobic. My mom still spouts off about same-sex marriage and the gays. I never fail to rise to the bait and point out that she is full of shit. It's a thing we do. From a very young age, I can remember her mocking gay people. Even at a young age, I didn't think it sounded... consistent. It wasn't until I was a teen that I started to call her on it.

How do you feel about feminism and how do you express it (if at all)?
I've considered myself a feminist for many years. That's not to imply that I get out and march (I don't march for anything, really). It's more that I believe and will support gender equality. I will (usually) call someone out who is talking shit about women (in official capacity). Context and humour is everything.

What is your relationship with femininity?
I am told I am "in touch with my feminine side". I don't know what it means precisely. I don't feel the need to continually affirm my maleness to the world by showing off all the macho tropes of masculinity. I find that kind of performance rather lame. I suppose I am saying I couch my relationship to femininity in my relation to masculinity... and I am not all that comfortable with overt masculinity, at least on my part.

 

The whole 'relationship with femininity' question was meant to prompt thinking about the concept of 'female vs. femininity.' Because, honestly, I don't think that the popular concept of femininity has much of anything to do with being female. Rather, to me, it seems like a concept marketed to women in order to, essentially, sell things. What, really, do items - clothing, pantyhose, makeup, hair products, perfumes, certain cars, certain cigarettes, raspberry wine coolers, products of a certain color, pink sparkly frou-frou shit, etc. - what does any of that have to do with being female? How do those things relate to the very first human females? (hint: we didn't start out wearing glitter nail polish.) I mean, if you want to be real about it, the only products out there that are marketed exclusively to women that have any real relationship to being female are tampons and maxipads.

The way I define femininity is not on a continuum from tomboy to princess. It's more a matter of how I see the world and what my experiences are like from the perspective of a female and the unique role that I play in society. Not how much time I spend in front of the mirror in the morning, whether my hair is short or long, or whether my underwear have bows on them.

Those are the ideas that start to get really interesting.
--- merged: Nov 11, 2013 at 8:35 PM ---
Also, coming soon: my opinion of the term COUGAR.
It's not favorable.

 

I agree. I don't see it as a continuum at all. When I look at women around me, it's way more complicated. And as much as men have tried to simplify masculinity, it too is a lot more complicated.

One of the issues I have is that feminine is seen as weak while masculine is seen as strong. That binary opposition has always seemed like bullshit to me.

Strength is not found in the colour of your clothes, the size of your chest, or the shape of your genitals...

 

Exactly. And I agree that the same circumstances exist for the concept of masculinity.

 

Madison Avenue has much to answer for in how we all see ourselves.

 

I agree with the back and forth @Charlatan and @mixedmedia are having.

When we get to Madison Avenue, I want to reflexively blame "men," since historically, Madison Ave. has meant male advertising executives and their vision of what women want (statistically, women buy far more of certain items than men/have influence on what is bought). But, if women didn't buy into what was being marketed it wouldn't sell and logic would dictate that something else would have to be tried.

The thing is, marketing isn't based on logic, it's based on emotion, specifically that you are lacking in some way and you need to buy "this" to make up for it.
I realize I'm oversimplifying, but I believe the general truth in selling is to convince the buyer that they "need" this product and the buyer ends up wanting it and then buying it.
So admen (and to lessor extent women, because there are less women in power positions overall) conceive a picture of what an ideal woman looks like, what her household looks like, what she consumes and how, etc. then they us on it. Or the image of it.

Where did our free will go, though?

I get, that going back to first-hand experience, I was externally feminized before I had a choice in the way I dressed and the fussy permed hairstyle I had. I was always being corrected to sit "like a lady" (sitting still and quiet and ladylike). But my disposition is such that I'm rough and tumble. I didn't do it on purpose but I'd scuff my pretty shoes and ruin my beautiful frock because they were not me. I have a hard time sitting still for more than 45 minutes or so now. I constantly failed at classroom"conduct" in grade school. "Me" came to be much later. I dress for comfort and I wear whatever the hell I want. Most of the time I have no idea what is in fashion until I see enough girls and women wearing the same colour in a season or odd pattern or platform shoes are back--again--that's the only way I know what Madison Ave is pushing. If I'm in style, it's an accident that what I wanted and what was "in" happened to intersect.

I love men that are "in touch with their feminine side." I think @Charlatan, you defined it exactly as I think of it: " I don't feel the need to continually affirm my maleness to the world by showing off all the macho tropes of masculinity. I find that kind of performance rather lame. I suppose I am saying I couch my relationship to femininity in my relation to masculinity... and I am not all that comfortable with overt masculinity, at least on my part."

I also prefer women that are not hyper feminine in their manners, though I can respect if a lady wishes to really be a lady in the stereotypical sense. Just don't hem men or women in by their gender. And don't expect me to act like a lady (unless I want to).

 

I like makeup. A lot. So much that I write about it in magazines and blog about it and so on and so forth. My office is filled with various products and I generally see shipment of new products arrive 2-3 times a week. I like that as a female we have options. I see it as a fun accessory that we as females are blessed to be able to use.

Not because I feel ugly or less than without it, but I find it so fascinating what you can do with makeup. It's art to me. The play of highlights and shadows, lights and darks is fun to experiment with. The drama, if you will.

I may not wash my hair or wear makeup for 3 days straight (I hate washing my hair and am thankful for the invention of dry shampoo), and I'm ok with that. I'm still me, makeup or not.

Makeup doesn't make the woman, but a woman certainly can be made up with makeup.

I sometimes feel sexiest when I've just rolled out of bed.