It's the Economy, stupid - Languishing & Lingering after the Great Recession

And communism wasn't responsible for the deaths of millions in the 20th century.

However, it's difficult to deny how things are interconnected. You can say that capitalism is merely the free allocation of resources, but it doesn't end there.

While there are ethical capitalists, there are many unethical ones. But I think the problem extends beyond direct influences. How many goods have you and I purchased that were produced using exploitative practices? Too many, on my part.

The recent preventable disaster in Bengladesh that killed over 530 people probably didn't get much media exposure in North America despite the connection of factors between here and there with regard to the production of cheap clothing. Now some are asking questions about the high cost of cheap.

I mean, who wants to pay more than $10 for a T-shirt, right?

Pressure mounts on Bangladesh, clothing brands to fix factories after deadly collapse

So while capitalism is a thing, and seedy practices are another thing, they don't each operate in a vacuum. They're connected. People make choices. Some have more options than others. Bengladeshi workers, it just so happens, are among those with very few.

Basically, capitalism is an economic system requiring active management. When it runs amok it has just as much damaging potential as, say, Russian communism.

Capitalism, racism, fascism: If you can't see any connection between these things, all I can say is look harder.

We are all a part of the same system.

 

Exploitative practices are practiced by ALL systems.
It is the ethics of the buyer and the seller that is the point.

And yes, the nations that employ capitalism need to regulate participants.
But the same is true of ANY system.

The government has military protect from without.
And the government policing is established to protect those within.
If done correctly and ethically.

Correlation does not mean causation.

I note you are lumping capitalism in with racism & fascism.
That is a logical fallacy...or a cognitive bias if not done with intent.

I don't deny "everything counts" and within the world all is interconnected.
But when you categorize things, you cannot say all evil is caused by THIS "evil"

Ethics are options taken by participants.
This is like saying all christians are evil due to the ignorance of some members or the past. (or Muslim, or...)
Or all politicians are evil due to the bad actions of quite a few.
and so on...

I've read and seen bad/evil done by ALL types, ALL groups and ALL methods.

Capitalism has become the system of preference because of its strengths.
They've tried other systems...and sooner or later, they trend to capitalism. (even Russia & China)
It better leverages the nation's resources and people, gives entities and groups chances to grow, without being micromanaged.

True, government and laws are there to referee. And it is not perfect.
But I have yet to see an alternative that gives you as much opportunity and harnesses ambition as well.
If not, then please note one that has stayed non-capitalist over decades with equal success.

But to say that capitalism is the root of all evil is incorrect.

 

I'm not saying that.

And you appear to be saying, "tu quoque," while downplaying or trying to detach the influence of capitalism on other things.

Au contraire. I'm not "lumping" them. I'm pointing out that they're connected. You admit as much, although you kind of glossed over the idea of cause and effect in response to what I said.

Global capitalism has empowered or otherwise makes possible or causes as side effects many things, for better or for worse, among them are racism and fascism.

Crony capitalism, for example, is usually manifested as a form of fascism.

As for racism, one merely needs to look at globalization and its associated effects of exploitation (often divided among racial lines) and xenophobic biases (often in the form of scapegoating and a desire for isolationism).

So while "the free allocation of resources" isn't "evil" (a word that can be a bit of a problem, I think), many of its related practices and outcomes, and the responses associated with them, are certainly problematic from an ethical standpoint.

 

By all means, Baraka_Guru, I am not turning it back on you...this is not illogic.

This is directly stating that you cannot lump capitalism in with all the evils of the world.
The evils happen whether capitalism exists or not, period.

People will be racist, fascist and otherwise whether capitalism is involved or not.
Ethics is what denotes whether people will or will not attempt to take advantage of a situation.

It does not matter if we are talking about capitalism, communism, socialism, etc...
For example, poor working conditions happened under Royalty, Capitalism, Tyranny, Communism, Socialism, Dictators, Theocracies and oh so much more.

There are good things that capitalism accomplishes too...so does that mean it is to blame for all the good in the world??
Or is it bi-polar...all good one day, all bad another?

What about how in China with new manufacturing growth and capitalistic trends, the wages have gone up within the country?
Making new demands and influence for their citizens' buying power, influence on government...and since the cost is not equatable,
now the trend of going to build products in China is reversing course bringing back to the US, Europe and Canada for more quality control.

Isn't this GOOD?? Can I now blame capitalism for all the good in China?

Or as they said in the Wizard of Oz, "That is a Horse of a Different Color"
Totally separate things.

Evil is an act. Taking advantage of people is an act.
Capitalism is an economic philosophy and dynamic. Both Good, bad and all points inbetween happen within it every second.
And the same is true for a communist state, or socialist, or any other economic dynamic in existence.

I do not deny that bad happens under capitalist situations.
But you also cannot deny that bad also happens under all other situations.

I'm not glossing over the cause and effect.
I directly stated, "Correlation does not mean causation."

Quoting from a simple wiki page

You and your compatriots are painting with a VERY broad brush.
The premise is flawed.

 

rogue49

So let me get this straight. You can't lump capitalism in with the evils of the world, but you can lump in everything else along with capitalism? I'm confused. This is because you're continuing with the tu quoque: Capitalism? Well, all the other stuff too!

But we're looking at capitalism. Let's look at capitalism.

You still aren't getting what I'm saying. I'm not calling capitalism an evil. (I actually can't call anything evil, so let's just say unethical or criminal or what have you.) I'm saying that bad things happen under capitalism. Bad things are made worse using capitalism. Yes, good things happen too.

You are playing some kind of White Knight game in your response to my criticisms of certain actions that occur under capitalism. You deny these things are associated with capitalism as though capitalism operates in a vacuum. It doesn't.

Capitalism itself is amoral, but my wider point is that the bad things that occur under capitalism (and certainly as a result of capitalism) need to be mitigated through regulation and legislation.

If capitalism operates as you seem to think it does (separated completely from outcomes such as racism and fascism and exploitation, etc.) then there would be no need for legislation such as child labour laws or workplace safety laws, etc.

A major issue is that some nations with laxer laws are taken advantage of, and this is where these worse problems originate.

I'm not sure what you're doing here. Are you denying the existence of causality under capitalist practices?

You pull another tu quoque (bad also happens with everything else) as though you mean to say that the bad stuff happens despite the existence of capitalism and so capitalism mustn't be a factor. I'm assuming this isn't what you mean; I just don't know why you keep bringing it up. Can we not talk about capitalism?

 

I don't understand why you're confusing this...it's pretty easy.

1. Baraka_Guru, you're now basically arguing my point. Except I'm saying that bad things aren't mutually exclusive.
   Capitalism is a moot point. Bad happens under ANY system. Capitalism doesn't make it worse, abuse just is in itself. Just bad.
   At this moment, your argument is circular.
   
   
2. @roachboy no...capitalism isn't an object, it is a philosophy or dynamic. And I disagree with you that the article is only a historical situation.
   It is referring to the current order of things and trying to make a connection between capitalism and fascism. Seems pretty apparent.
   And I responded to that, saying that I disagree with that premise. Capitalism isn't the evil or cause, it is simply abuse and unethical actions.
   As I stated above, these same abuses occurred throughout history and currently within MANY systems.

So let's make it clear.

• Capitalism does not cause fascism.
• Fascism has happened under most systems.
• You cannot infer capitalism is bad because some participants are being bad.

Shit, I might as well claim that R&D is terrible just because some companies have done bad things with their R&D.
Or Kindergarden is bad just because some kids have behaved badly.

 

rogue49

You keep ignoring essential parts of my point.

You are entirely welcome to keep ignoring them, but please stop making assumptions. Stop making my argument circular by mutilating it.

Something isn't moot just because you say it is, especially if you keep using a logical fallacy despite my pointing it out to you more than once.

It wouldn't be so much a fallacy if you would at least admit that capitalism requires management to avoid the bad things we're talking about.

I suspect you think of capitalism as having a kind of purity that I have difficulty envisioning.

Maybe help me out by being unafraid of looking at capitalism beyond its dictionary definition.

 

I'm not ignoring anything...frankly, it almost seems that you're ignoring what you are saying yourself within your statements.
As well, as ignoring what I'm stating including agreements with you. There is no assumption.
And I believe you are making your own arguments circular, I'm just responding to them specifically.

I've already stated that capitalism isn't perfect and needs policing and regulation. (as do other systems too)
Capitalism isn't pure, but it isn't malign either...which is inferred by the article and seemingly with your previous statements.

And the only thing I fear is that you are not getting what I'm saying...which IS fairly straight-forward.

Please understand this, I'm a realist and a pragmatic...and a cynic.
I have not drank the kool-aid for anything. I have no bias, just observations. What works, what doesn't.

All I stated is this...
Capitalism is not the cause of fascism.
This is implied with the article. It is very obvious.

And correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to be what you are stating within your previous replies, that capitalism IS the cause of fascism. (and racism)
If you like, I can note the phrases themselves. But you're welcome to clarify either way.

Please stop accusing me of turning around and "mutilating" your comments. This is an exaggeration by far.
And it's getting to the point of me not wanting to continue the discussion, because it is going overboard.

 

Capitalism isn't independent of racism and fascism.

 

This is a useless question.

I believe this is something the WTO is working through.

I don't know what this question means. I think the wording is awkward. Could you rephrase the question?

What context? Could you expand on that?

 

Agreed.

These factors would affect any system.
The key is to be aware of them, prevent them from occurring, be proactive...and take the time & intelligence to consider all the variables.

Unfortunately, there are those out there that would oppose such things for their own short-term gains, shallow ideology, political positioning or purely intellectual laziness.

Again, these negatives affect any system...and if not attended to or address...will also pull down any system.
Even the Roman Empire collapsed...

There takes a certain mental effort to do the right thing.
You need to be on guard from stupidity no matter your setup or MO.

It would be very easy for me to not pay attention, not look both ways and walk straight out into the road.
The same is true for pretty much anything.

Serves me right for getting out of my bed...and out of my house...and attempt to use my legs to walk.