Politics The Elephant in the room...The GOP today

"Expulsed"?

That must be the last known instance of that word remaining in captivity and you have just released it on this thread. Shame on you!

What will future generations see when they look at the container that used to be its home? A small sign reading "Expulse was here - now expelled".

Sad, sad day.

 

Expulsed, expunged, expelled, exploded.

Any will do.

 

People will choose the degree they have faith in literal interpretations of biblical writings. There is nothing to fear in young people reading and being taught biblical writing - just as there is nothing to fear from young people reading and being taught the writing in Greek Mythology or even US folklore. When I was 12 I understood the symbolism in Paul Bunyan and the symbolism in Apollo. I actually enjoyed the process of reading Jules Verne and going through the mental exercise of coming to my own conclusion regarding the lost City of Atlantis. I have also spent many hours reading and studying the King James version of the Christian Bible and I can honestly say that the best way to teach critical thinking is to openly place personal views on the table and have those views subjected to the questions of others. Normal 12 year-olds being told that the Bible is literal will come up with at least a few questions challenging that point of view - and if they do that is a good thing and absolutely nothing to fear.

I would be more concerned about the pretense that if we don;t discuss religion in schools we are better off. think about it - if they want to teach the bible as literal they are going to need to do more than simply say you have to have faith. But it goes back to the liberal point of view that the general population is stupid and needs the nanny state to spoon feed public what the nanny state thinks is acceptable and not acceptable.

 

There is really not much opposition to teaching Christianity as part of comparative religion curriculum.

 

But again, you are singling out Christianity, aren't you. Maybe you aren't. As grumpy stated, I don't think anyone objects to the teaching of religion as part of a comparative religious course. Texas, of course, is not doing that and I would be very willing to bet that questions asked by students challenging the literal interpretations or even the accepted interpretations of doctrine are quickly dismissed.

Anecdotal.

In Virginia schools, there is no formal teaching of Creationism. But in the rural areas it's not frowned upon if a teacher chooses to contradict evolutionary theory and substitute it with their own religious creationist beliefs. My own children have witnessed this numerous times.

The straw for me was when my daughter came home extremely angry at one of her teachers one day. A sixth grade student, she challenged the teacher in Geography class. Her teacher claimed that the continents were never joined in one land mass, that God created everything as we find it now. I'd told my daughter about Pangaea years earlier and she was fascinated by the whole idea of it.

The teacher ended up by telling her she was being ignorant and needed to go home and read her Bible.

Needless to say, I had a few choice words to say to the school administrator. My daughter was removed from the class (by my request) to a free period. I would have liked to have personally seen the teacher admonished but the truth is, she probably wasn't.

 

My point is that if a teacher gets in front of a class and says something like Jonah was literally swallowed whole by a whale, some in the class may come back with a few questions challenging that.

If I were the leader of a Church I would not want control of my teachings to be turned over to the public schools because those teachings would be challenged - in church people accept teachings based on faith. If anti-religion people want to challenge religious teachings the best way to do that is outside of church.

Why anger? If a teacher is wrong, she/he is wrong. Teachers can be wrong on many subjects and issues - teachers are people too. Or, are we supposed to hold teachers on a special pedestal or something like it?

In addition, I support being able to fire teachers who don't know what they are talking about, at-will, do you?
--- merged: Jan 31, 2013 at 2:12 PM ---

what about literature?
social science?
folklore?
philosophy?
Civics?
History?
Foreign language?

All and more can be applicable in addition to comparative religion.
--- merged: Jan 31, 2013 at 2:25 PM ---

Isn't the above sort of a strawman argument? Or, when you say foundational what do you mean? Are you suggesting these schools would not use any other text books?

If I ran an "arts" school would you force me to have a football team? I think we let informed people make their choices. If a Christian school doesn't offer nono-Christian activities/services/etc. don;t pick the school. If a science and technology school doesn't have a Glee Club - join a Glee Club outside of school.

Again, I think we should be able to fire teachers who don't know the subject they are teaching. If a science teacher is teaching that the earth is 6,000 years old, fire that teacher - or have the teacher submit scientific justification. To me, these are not complicated issues.

 

As a piece of a folklore or philosophy class, the Bible would fit. As literature? If you wanted an example of what not to do, maybe. It is not a reliable history...full of factual contradictions, inaccurate geography and fantastic events. Quite a bit of it is a compiled retelling of the folk tales of the cultures that preceded the Israelites.

 

In a broad sense our system of government and our common view of human rights are foundational on the writings in the Bible or the first 5 books of Moses depending one's view.

The bible contradicts itself.

It is the source of our common law.

I am not Catholic but I went to a Catholic school from 1st-8th grade. Every year I had a course called Religion, but other than that I was taught everything public school students were taught. I was never taught to read the bible literally. I was not treated different because of my religion. No one put pressure on me to "convert". I think the line of reasoning you describe is a myth or greatly taken out of proportion. Could be compared to the extreme small number of people who may think the earth is literally 6,000 years old - are you ignoring reality? Are you critically thinking on this subject?

You make things overly complicated.

No - we can give them a process - i.e. warning, remedial help, probation, etc before termination. However, if a science teacher honestly believes the earth is 6,000 or that a man can be swallowed whole by a whale and live to tell the tale .... I think it is clear that person is not qualified to teach science - don't you agree?

Fire the administrator that hired the unqualified teacher too! Again not complicated. why do we have a secretary of education if not to set minimal national standards?

Right. I say give the parent the option of alternative schools. Give the state the opportunity to take control of the local school district. Give the federal government the opportunity to take control of the state department of education - withhold the money - do something - there are ways to manage this with liberal or conservative alternatives. Our current system is far too union focused and not child focused.

I have no problem giving people the tools they need to do the job they are hired to do. what started this were examples of teachers teaching things we know is wrong. Even on the issue of race diversity, I don't know any Christians personally that believes people with dark skin color are inferior - these people may be out there, but I think their numbers in 2013 are very small.
--- merged: Jan 31, 2013 at 4:08 PM ---

What do you think of Shakespeare? Why would you argue to teach Shakespeare in schools but not the Bible? For example I doubt anyone looks at Shakespeare as literal history - but it is relevant for a course in history.

what I am most curious about is why even the mention of the Bible in schools is so offensive to some?

 

Going through all of those "begats" on audio book has got to be a hoot

 

Ace...who would you fire for crossing the line from teaching literature to teaching theology to the point of proselytizing in the public classroom?

The teacher unqualified to teach theology?

The school board that developed the curriculum and teaching materials, including pseudo-science and the literal word of the Bible, from a narrow conservative Protestant perspective?

The legislators and/or governor who adopted the Texas "Bible bill" that provides that school districts "may offer an elective course on the content, history, literary style and influence of the Old and New Testaments" (no Koran, no Book of Mormon, no books on Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism...)

 

Shakespeare as historical figure, yes. But his writing? Strictly literature.

 

Then we agree, though it didn't sound to me like the second part of the comment above was your point at all.

I expect teachers in a public school not to confuse religious fantasy with geographical fact. Is that too much to expect from someone with a degree in education who is getting paid to teach my child a standard and fact based curriculum? This was not a matter of her simply being wrong. If she believes the multi-continent story, maybe she should be teaching at a private religious school where that nonsense is par with all the other nonsense.

And why anger? If I told your child and his/her classmates that black people are not as highly evolved as white people (yeah, my kids have heard that one from teachers) and your child called me on it, only to be ridiculed by me in front of his/her classmates, are you saying you wouldn't get pissed off? Bullshit.

Virginia is an "at will" state and a lot of teachers are no longer unionized there, so it's not difficult to do. I would definitely want a re-determination of the teacher's competency. At what point or level is it determined the teacher is not competent? And who makes that determination? So no, I don't believe a teacher, or any educated professional should be fired "at will" without sufficient, proven grounds.

 

My point is that these things including the Bible are worthy of inclusion in educational pursuits.

Religion is a part of human history, human existence - we can not ignore this in education. There is a subtle difference between education and promotion of religion. I agree that school is not a place to preach that one type of religious practice is superior to another or a place for state sponsored religion. Occasionally it is not clear what is actually being discussed when this topic comes up.

I don't know who you refer to when you use the word "fundamentalist". I am not a biblical scholar and I doubt most who talk about this are - but I do know that in the Bible Jesus often spoke in parables. So if a person reading a parable, doesn't know or understand that it is a parable can easily be confused and if taken literally can totally misunderstand the point.

and just as bad is if a person hearing a person describe a parable in the Bible does not take the time to understand that the speaker is reciting a parable and knows it. I think there are many anti-religion people who fall into this category.