Politics The Elephant in the room...The GOP today

Right. Placing it in its historical perspective makes it that much more appealing.

 

Baraka_Guru, I'm not downplaying the bad stuff and just emphasizing the good...there is no silver lining, just reality.

Are you going to deny that the US has what it has??? No, because it's just there. Does that make us better? Again, No...but it does give quite a few advantages it and it's citizens can leverage it.
But this can skew perspective or make others covet what they think they don't have.
It in reality doesn't make a person or entity better...it just is.

And I'm noting other nations, because the SAME happens in other nations.
They have their nationalist parties too. (and I think we've seen the idea taken even more to an extreme there)
And as I stated, many in the GOP are overzealous in their flag-wrapping.
That is obvious and been noted...but you may be getting overzealous yourself in pushing the point on how "bad" Americans are, if not especially the GOP, who've made themselves a bit silly already.

Now, we can keep harping on how all the bad things that Americans did in the far past, but most these days have nothing to do with that, didn't have any control.
If you're going to hold people responsible, hold them responsible for current items. (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) not the sins of the past.
roachboy, you're taking an idea to extreme, or portraying a mentality that was pervasive in the past in the US (50's)
Most Americans don't think there is any special benefit towards them, if anything...they are disappointed in the recent years. (at least that's what I hear and see)

Should I really make you throw up and say, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful..."
No, because all have much to offer, and just like I enjoy the flavors and talents of other nations, enjoy the US for what it is.

And just like you don't want the GOP flag-waving with overkill, I don't want to the opposite and have others bash on it with fervor.
It is what it is, it has what it has. No more, no less.
I would do the same for any country.

 

rogue49

It is what it is? Are you actually attempting to whitewash this? We're talking about American exceptionalism and its inherent problems. It isn't merely the good things that America does. It isn't merely nationalism. It isn't merely the bad things America does. It isn't merely America's history, good or bad.

What we're talking about here is the problem with an ideological position. It's the belief that America has a special status. It's the justification for certain actions that America takes based on—nay, because of—this special status. It's a problem. It's a moral justification for hypocrisy, ignorance, and gall.

It's not merely arrogance; the arrogance is a modus operandi.

It's not merely my perspective; you can gauge these things objectively.

Again, I will say this isn't about weighing the American good vs. the American bad and then seeing how it stacks up to everyone else. This is American exceptionalism we're talking about, not American greatness.

 

No, I'm not trying to whitewash this.
I'm saying that it's everywhere
and certain groups push it more than others or at least it's more prevalent in certain groups.

Are you saying that there is no nationalism in Canada?
Are you saying that certain groups don't push the Great Maple Leaf?
Are you saying that there aren't Canadians that look down on outside nations, since they think their views are "better"?
(oh so especially your poor dumb caveman neighbor to the South)

I've already stated and agreed the GOP patriotism is overkill at times.
But you're ready to drive it into the ground.

I'm saying that ALL nations have their good and bad points.
I'm saying that ALL nations have their advantages which they should leverage
and their disadvantages, which if they are wise should address or at least be aware of.
I'm saying that Americans shouldn't be granted any exceptionalism.
But I'm also stating that you shouldn't beat them into the ground for it, especially from some of our more vocal local idiots.
All GOP are not all Americans.
All nationalists are not all GOP
and so on...

It is a logical fallacy...a blanket-statement.

But we're going from showing the GOP for it's weaknesses
and asking them to improve their quality,
to what seems to be an "America is an Arrogant SOB nation and who do they think they are" trend.

Which I don't think is worthy either.
And perhaps as bad as one-side self-aggrandizing
Versus another doing the opposite.

 

Would you care to focus on American exceptionalism? I don't deny that other places have it. Iran does, for example, as does Israel. But why point to these others when this thread is about the GOP?

I'm not talking about patriotism, national pride, or jingoism, and this isn't about Canada; it's about America. I thought I made myself clear. Apparently not.

I only appear to be because people misunderstand what I'm saying and I felt compelled to expand on my points and repeat them when necessary.

I will repeat some previous points of mine in response to this: This isn't about good vs. bad. This isn't about competitive advantages. This isn't about nationalism. Perhaps go back to my initial discussion with Ace about American exceptionalism. That's what I'm talking about.

Also exceptionalism isn't something that's granted; it's something that assumed.

What is? I never said anything about nationalists other than pointing out that it's not what I'm talking about specifically.

If it appears that way, I apologize, but that's a bastardization of what I'm saying.

I don't know of the self-aggrandizing counterpoint to American exceptionalism. Maybe the "death to America" crowd, but I don't tend to associate or sympathize with those folks.

 

Dammit, what I typed is all gone...so I'll keep it short.

I know what it is.
It is essentially all the same...exceptionalism, nationalism, patriotism, etc... It is the same mindset.
British Exceptionalism, Russian Exceptionalism, German Exceptionalism...and so on...fluctuating across the years.

So rather than harp on the obvious, which is that many in the GOP are overkill in their view that America is VERY great.
Get off what seems to be America is a terrible place with terrible people trend
And perhaps get back to noting where the GOP can improve itself.

 

Oh, I don't think America is a terrible place peopled with the terrible. I just think the American political and media landscape is dysfunctional. This attempt to revitalize American exceptionalism (in any form) is just one symptom of that.

 

Would you suggest that it's obvious that business and economics majors would lie when money is on the line, or would you suggest that lying is okay when money is on the line?

What are you talking about? The context is there if you look at it. It's right there within the wider American mythology. You've already referred to it yourself. I'm surprised you'd contradict yourself this way.

Oh, I see. You do what so many other conservatives do: Disparage the U.N., call it irrelevant, until it's convenient to use it as leverage to meet your aims. How convenient it is.

Well, it doesn't help you much. The U.N. Security Council certainly is not a feature of American exceptionalism. For starters, you've somehow downplayed the four other permanent members of the council who hold veto power: China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom. Second, the U.S. hardly considers this a platform through which it is required to conduct its affairs in the world. It's merely a tool in its drawer that it will use when it sees fit. That America is a part of the Security Council is beside the point. Where was the U.N. resolution for the Iraq War? Do the drone strikes have U.N. approval? Will the U.S. bypass the council and go to war in Syria? Why does the U.S. bypass the council if it's in a unique position of authority and leadership?

I honestly have no idea why you'd bring up the U.N. It's like you're grasping at straws to deny something undeniable. I don't think this is a question of whether American exceptionalism is legitimate. I think this is more about what the impact is, where it's going, and what the moral implications are.

In what way do you consider America unique or special? What do you consider the Chinese ideology?
--- merged: Jan 7, 2013 at 6:35 PM ---

Or yesterday's American Front. But maybe they'll drop the all-white thing. It's bad for publicity.

 

*sigh*
Aceventura, hate to tell you this...you're not making my argument any easier with your almost cartoon character statements.

Here I am, trying to even out the overall arrogance throughout the world and time,
get thread back on track and off a the ugly American trend
and here you come, stirring up the natives (or non-natives as it were...) just proving a rhetorical overkill which the scoundrels in the GOP are notorious for.

Are you really this G-D redstate Red,White & Blue nuts...or this just trolling and a nice day-time hobby for ya??
Not that the others are doing any better by taking the "liberal bait".

What's a rational world-aware centralist US citizen to do anymore???

 

The study wasn't conducted on children; it was conducted on adults who, within a matter of months, would be expected to enter the workforce at the advent of their careers.

It's nice of you to equate these students to children though. Does this apply to just the economics and business students?

Actually, you simply stated "ideological position" and "without context." You then went on with an irrelevant discussion of the U.S. role in the U.N. Security Council.

What does that have to do with anything?

Well, that doesn't matter. All of it is irrelevant.