1. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Politics Obama - Actually doing a good job?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by rogue49, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. Raghnar

    Raghnar Getting Tilted

    Beware that Germany rushing into renewable energy sources has the implication of A LOT of new Carbon plants...
     
  2. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    When you account for all tax credits, breaks, benefits, loopholes, etc., corporate rates (i.e., the effective corporate tax rate) in the U.S. are relatively low. It really comes down to specific incentives for developing technologies or capacities within certain industries that would otherwise be underdeveloped without such benefits.

    U.S. Corporate Tax Rate Plunges To 40 Year Low Of 12.1 Percent | ThinkProgress

    [​IMG]

    It's certainly a challenge, but it seems to be one they are actively managing. Compare that to the long-term problems France may face with their nuclear-centric strategy.

    I still say a mixed approach is best, while continuing to develop better, cleaner technologies.

    Busting the carbon and cost myths of Germany's nuclear exit | Damian Carrington | Environment | guardian.co.uk

    New Coal Fired Plants Could Be Key to German Energy Revolution - SPIEGEL ONLINE
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  3. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I suppose there are different methods for calculating effective tax rates, but I looked at Exxon Mobil's annual 2011 numbers they had (audited) line item before tax, income of $73,257 (in millions) and after tax income of $42,206 (in millions). That is an effective rate of about 42%. Here is a link to the data.

    Financial Statements for Exxon Mobil Corporation - Google Finance
    --- merged: Sep 25, 2012 at 11:58 AM ---
    One thing to keep in mind is that corporate taxes get passed on to consumers. Consumers pay corporate taxes. If one country has artificially low corporate tax rates out of line with other nations, all other thing being equal, net capital will flow to that country. Only foolish nations would have a tax policy that goes beyond real social costs making their nation relatively uncompetitive. it is also foolish to have tax policy that goes below real social costs forcing their citizens to subsidies the lives of people in other nations - a strange form of voluntary exploitation, China comes to mind.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  4. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    There's what the industry reports, and then there's the reality:

    Exxon Mobil's Tax Rate Drops To 13 Percent, After Making 35 Percent More Profits On Rising Gas Prices In 2011 | ThinkProgress


    Oh, shareholders pay corporate taxes too, of course.

    And it's a bit superficial to look at tax rates alone in terms of gauging competitiveness. All other things are never equal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  5. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    In fact, that rate of about 42% includes foreign taxes and taxes that are deferred....as pointed out in baraka's link.
    --- merged: Sep 25, 2012 at 12:10 PM ---
    Nearly 100 years of tax breaks, tax incentives, depletion allowances, lease waivers and other subsidies:

    [​IMG]

    What other industry has fared so well?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  6. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    The point is that taxes get reflect in prices. Generally, no matter what happens there is going to be a reversion to a risk adjusted rate of return to invested capital.

    Here we go again - I did not imply "alone", I specifically stated "all other things being equal".
    --- merged: Sep 25, 2012 at 12:29 PM ---
    I wrote that I suppose there are different methods for calculating effective tax rates. I tend to look at it in absolute terms, I prefer not making all kinds of contortions to get a result to fit a certain political argument.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  7. Alistair Eurotrash

    Location:
    Reading, UK
    They certainly do. So do subsidies, of course.

    As a non-American, I think Americans pay FAR too little for gas and that adds to the problem. Raising gas prices via taxation, of course, is inflationary - which is also a problem. Perhaps it depends on how those taxes are used?
     
  8. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Prices aren't tied directly to taxes. Both prices and profits are a result of a number of other variables. Taxes are merely one of them.

    Also note that another thing influenced by taxes and other expenses are salaries and wages.

    What else is implied in the assumption that "all other things [are] equal." Why would you make that assumption if not to consider taxes in isolation, or at least as the only significant factor?

    Again, all other things are never equal.

    Do you want to look at other relevant factors too?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  9. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Look at the variance in state sales taxes for gas. Different states have different tax amounts. Adjusting for "all other things being equal" (Econ 101), the variance at the pump is due to different tax rates.

    No, I want to talk about President Obama's promise to lower health care insurance premiums.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/business/health-care-premiums-rise-modestly-report-says.html?_r=0

    On the surface these modest increases may appear to be good news, however adjusting for other factors like actual wages being down. All other things being equal real premium increases are measurably higher. Yet another failed promise.
     
  10. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    So you want to ignore price fluctuations based on domestic and global factors? Why? That makes no sense.

    What's with you and wanting all other things to be equal? You only include the things you want to include. It's usually just one thing. This time you want to include two things, because it helps your case to state that wages are down. Convenient.

    I'd suggest looking at the big picture, but that might be a mistake. Let me just ask you what you think the problem is and what the solution is. Do you think this comes down to regulation? Do you think there are adequate regulations? Do you think there should be more? Less? I think I know your answers, but I don't want to presume. "Obamacare" is relatively new and a rather odd beast that needs a bit of work, to say the least.
     
  11. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Here is some info on the concept "all other things being equal" or ceteris paribus:

    Ceteris paribus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I am not sure what the basis of our miscommunication is - perhaps we need to start at the basic level.
     
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I would simply suggest both of us avoid using Ceteris paribus as a crutch. We should discuss complex matters without oversimplifying them, especially when it involves leaving out important and unavoidable factors.

    There is no sense in speaking of things in isolation when they don't operate as such.
     
  13. Aceventura

    Aceventura Slightly Tilted

    Location:
    North Carolina
    The above is odd to me. Ceteris paribus is not a crutch in my opinion.

    At the core, again, we find that we think different. I find this intriguing. I have no clue how to understand complex relationships between two variables without adjusting or controlling for the other variables - Ceteris paribus. Perhaps you can elaborate on how you do it.
     
  14. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    premium growth at historic lows......savings of $3+ billion to seniors in closing donut hole....2+ million young adults now covered in family plan....$1+ billion in rebates for overcharges....millions of children with pre-existing conditions now covered...preventive care with no co-pay for all existing plans.....

    Failed promise? By what objective measure or standards?
     
  15. samcol

    samcol Getting Tilted

    Location:
    indiana
    he should be thrown out of office for this alone. this is not acceptable foreign policy. this is not spreading peace and democracy.
    --- merged: Sep 25, 2012 at 7:53 PM ---
    ralph nader also provided what i consider great critisism of the president especially from someone on the left.


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  16. redux

    redux Very Tilted

    Location:
    Foggy Bottom
    On balance, while I dont support the drones policy, I would take the Obama foreign policy over the two alternative conservative/libertarian extremes.....preventive war/attack Iran (neo-cons) or appeasement/total disengagement (R Paul).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. samcol

    samcol Getting Tilted

    Location:
    indiana
    his foreign policy has just been bush term 3, that's why i can't understand the support of him. how would a neo-con at this moment be any worse? nothing about iran is off the table. a pre-emptive strike could happen anytime with either obama or romney in power.

    iraq is bush's legacy as the left likes to say, but are we really out of there? the policy is troops out, blackwater (renamed ACADEMI) back in. it all just seems smoke and mirrors.

    afghanistan has been nothing more than surge in 2009 then withdrawl surge before election. just seems purely political.
    --- merged: Sep 25, 2012 at 8:32 PM ---
    from an anti-war perspective having romney might actually be better. during bush's seconds term the resistance from the left was immense. however when obama got in power the whole anti-war, anti police-state movement went to sleep for the most part.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2012
  18. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's not a crutch in the right context. Your use seems to be for that purpose. It's like you're saying you want to talk about Factor A and Factor B while ignoring Factors C through G because you see patterns between A and B, and wouldn't it be nice if we could just look at A and B?

    Well, it might be nice, but we'd be having a different kind of discussion entirely. Personally, I don't think it would be a very interesting one.

    When you look at relationships between two variables, it helps to know whether there are other factors that influence them. In your past few posts, you seem to want to eliminate these other factors from the discussion. I'm not sure why that is. Are you trying to go in the direction of philosophy or theory? I thought we were talking about real-life issues.

    Look, I really wouldn't mind discussing the insurance premium issue. But I'm not going to limit the discussion simply because you find it convenient. Will you respond to my questions about regulation?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  19. Raghnar

    Raghnar Getting Tilted

    France have nuclear-centric induced problems, but also a lot of asset, expecially in these new go-green-goodies political parties in continental europe (Italy for 20 years and now even Germany, that started importing energy), France is the one that is providing a steady and affordable amount of energy making EDF getting a fortune.
    Germany is paying a lot of incentives to the monumental disaster that is its photovoltaic industry, now completely crushed by Chinese cheap Panels coming from the biggest deposits or rare earth available (and now starting to be closed to exports, trusting their factories and crushing external competition) and cheap super-dirty-and-killing carbon energy. Now its getting revamped the Ruhr Carbon deposits and opening GW-sized Carbon power plants, and will be practically impossible to stick to the Kyoto protocol within few years... I see a grim future for that country that now is playing bossy in the European Politics.
    The only energetic hope for this europe is to unite even more, at least energetically, adding the big France Nuclear basepower to the new Spanish Eolic resources, the on-demand Carbon and Gas modulation respectively used in Germany and Italy.
    You in the US have a lot a resources and space and less worry, but the renewable sources can kill a country more than 100 Fukushima, if you play insane with the state incentives...
     
  20. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Only if the government plays it the right way...will it strengthen the nation, make energy more affordable and move forward with alternatives.
    Otherwise, they'll end up bowing down to the Energy Powers...and they'll just line their own pockets with whatever is convenient.

    And on the Rare Earth note...the US has got quiet a bit, but unlike China...we aren't allowing mining of it. (so they have the market)
    Again, it's how the government plays the game.

    So the next 4 years will be a big factor...and on that note,
    interesting article from Andrew Sullivan...rational old-school conservative. (the kind I like, NTTAWWT)